Juror13

True crime and trial opinions from a layman's perspective

Who Called the Ambulance… and When?

crime_1The Oscar Trial never disappoints with mysteries to unravel!

Let me know your theories and thoughts…

Who’s telling the truth?

Who’s lying?  And why?

 

OSCAR CALLS NETCARE AT 3:20AM

 

DR STIPP – DIRECT TESTIMONY:

Dr. Stipp went back outside (after examining Reeva) and asked Stander if the ambulance was on their way. Stander said no, he hadn’t called them yet so Stipp called the Wilgers Hospital emergency department and asked them to send an ambulance. They told him he had to call an emergency number directly, not them.  So Stander then dialed Netcare and handed his phone to Stipp who spoke to the dispatcher.  Stipp described the nature of Reeva’s injuries to them.

 

JOHAN STANDER – DIRECT TESTIMONY:

Stander states that while he was outside, shortly after arriving at OP’s, Dr. Stipp arrived. He introduced himself as Johan and stated that he was a medical doctor. Stander says that he asked Stipp to go inside and see if he could assist. He also asked Stipp for the number to an ambulance because he couldn’t get a hold of them. Stipp gave him the number 082911. Stander then phoned 082911 and managed to get through.

While he was speaking on the phone (he indicates for several minutes), Stipp came back out. Stander states he said to Stipp he was having a hard time explaining to the dispatcher how to get to the house, so he handed the phone to Stipp who then spoke with the dispatcher.

[NOTE:  On cross examination, Nel wants to know what they (Stander & Stipp) discussed. Did they discuss the injuries? Stander says no, Stipp just told him that she had a fatal head wound but he did not discuss any of the other injuries with him.  Nel asks him if Oscar or anybody else told him how many wounds she sustained. Stander says no. Nel then asks, “not even your daughter?” Stander pauses, then answers, “I can’t recall.”  But wasn’t Stander with Stipp when Stipp detailed Reeva’s injuries for the ambulance dispatcher?

 

CARICE STANDER – DIRECT TESTIMONY:

Oscar said “just take my car, put her in the car.” Carice said no, just put her down. So he placed Reeva on the ground.   At that moment, Carice’s Dad stepped outside to call the ambulance.  This was within moments of them arriving.

A few minutes later, Carice told Oscar that a doctor had arrived. She claims they were both relieved. Stipp walked in and Carice went back outside with her Dad who was still calling the ambulance. So at this point, just Stipp and Oscar were inside with Reeva, and Carice and Johan are outside on the phone.  Carice testifies that when she was outside with her Dad, she also spoke with the dispatcher.  Why?  How long does it take, and how many people does it take, to request an ambulance?

After examining Reeva, Stipp went back outside and Carice went back inside. They passed each other at the doorway. Carice said Stipp wasn’t in there very long.  Upon coming out, he stated, “it’s very bad.”

 

BABA – DIRECT TESTIMONY:

Oscar came down the stairs carrying Reeva in his arms. Baba was very shocked by what he was seeing that he couldn’t think for a few moments. How could everything be “fine” when Oscar was carrying a bleeding woman down the stairs? When Johan Stander said “OSCAR”, Baba snapped out of his shock.

At this point, Stander told Baba to go call police and the ambulance. He also gave the guards instructions to make sure that no cars were parked at Oscar’s house. Baba then left to go make the phone calls. He also called the control room office and informed the manager of what was happening. Baba never went in the house that night. He does confirm though that the lights were on inside the house.

AMBULANCE AND PARAMEDICS ARRIVE AT 3:42AM

Oscar Pistorius shooting

Police vehicles are parked outside the home of South African "Blade Runner" Oscar Pistorius in Pretoria

#8Restoration

@lisawJ13

@HiRezLife

31 comments on “Who Called the Ambulance… and When?

  1. jill
    December 5, 2014

    Yes.The recording of OPs call to ambulance service was never heard.Not sure if they record the calls in SA? OP said they told him to put her in the car.WHY would they do this when everyone knows not to move a fatally injured person.I think OP wanted RSs body out of his house so he could cover up what he had done and to prevent any publicity so he wouldn’t look bad.WHY would he carry her downstairs??? No one ever asked this in court?

    • juror13
      December 5, 2014

      Hi Jill… I agree that OP was trying to get the body out of the house. He wanted the Standers to take her to the hospital and away from the scene.

      When I look at the discrepancies in testimony that I posted here, it seems to me that the Standers are the puzzle piece that doesn’t fit.

      So, it begs the question… why didn’t the Standers call the ambulance immediately after hanging up with Oscar at 3:20 and why are they seemingly lying on the stand?

  2. jill
    December 5, 2014

    .Mr S was friends with Op wasn’t he?Carice took Reevas bag too……..They knew this would end everything for him.
    Who informed Roux so soon? Is this normal in SA?

    • juror13
      December 6, 2014

      A very damning piece of info that came from Dr. Stipp as well was that at some point, Mrs. Stander (Johan’s wife) arrived and while they were all standing outside, the wife made the comment that she hoped “this” would not get out to the papers.

      Isn’t that insane. She talks about “this” like it’s a trivial piece of gossip, meanwhile Reeva’s corpse is lying close by in the house. That gives you a little insight in to their character… Better to protect Oscar than get justice for the dead woman.

      Someone in the family, likely Carl, contacted Oldwage almost immediately upon hearing what happened. Oldwage arrived on the scene within an hour after Reeva was shot. Her parents didn’t even know she was dead yet and there is a defense lawyer at Oscar’s house.

      • Nick van der Leek-Photo
        December 6, 2014

        100%. That’s what the crime was about ….. hoping “this” would not get out to the papers.

  3. Lulu
    December 5, 2014

    GREAT TOPIC!

    First of all, I believe Stipp. period.

    Second, everything Stander or Carice says is suspect to me.

    Third, OP lies like a rug.

    Fourth, HOWEVER, if he was telling the truth about it, he was taking her down to put her in the car, having been told by the hospital to drive her there himself.

    How could that make any sense?

    I have no idea when or where — or whether I just dreamed it, but I “heard” that in SA there is no telling when ambulances will arrive; it’s often faster for people to take the sick and injured in themselves. (?)

    Fifth, the entire episode sounds crazy to me. How do we know that, IF he talked to the hospital, he even that she was shot in the head and her brains were oozing out. IF he talked to them, he may have said he had a person there who was shot.

    Sixth, OP lies like a rug.

  4. william
    December 6, 2014

    Very telling here is his instruction to Carice to “take my car”. He had no intention of taking Reeva himself or accompanying her to the hospital. She was already dead, he knew it and he needed to clean up the scene…

    • FrankieUK
      December 7, 2014

      It is funny the give aways.

  5. Nick van der Leek-Photo
    December 6, 2014

    He had no intention of taking Reeva himself or accompanying her to the hospital. >>>it was other people keeping secrets all over again

  6. Lorna Kavanagh
    December 7, 2014

    Is it possible that OP fired more than four times and he managed to get rid of evidence before everyone arrived on the scene? A suspect hole in bedroom door for instance? The metal plate in bathroom damaged? And why didn’t Frank hear anything?
    And of course Carl and the cell phone.
    Lulu asked about the ambulances in SA .. private ambulances come straight away but the municipal ambulances can take much longer depending how busy they are.

    • william
      December 7, 2014

      Would a Netcare dispatcher really tell someone to take a shooting victim, with a bullet wound to the head, to hospital in their own car?! Did Oscar describe Reeva’s injuries to the dispatcher? Was the dispatcher on duty that night questioned? Even phone calls to a bank are recorded ….

      I cannot understand why the prosecution did not question OP about the damage to the bedroom door and the metal plate as well as the jeans on the ground outside. How would he have fitted these into the intruder story?!

  7. FrankieUK
    December 7, 2014

    Very interesting Lorna.

    I always thought there were other shots, although what counts against that, is it is unlikely Reeva would have stood behind the loo door, if she had known he had his gun out.

    There is a corner in the loo to the left of the door, that she may have instinctively moved to for shelter.

    Possibly the cricket bat had been used and the bullet hole in the bedroom door and blood on the underneath of the duvet, although that could have been from OP.

    The investigative team would take photographs and then turn the duvet over, to see what is on the other side.

    Let’s not forget the jeans on the bedroom floor and outside the bedroom window.

    The one weakness of the prosecution (nothing like hindsight to give twenty twenty vision), is there should have been a timeline for the neighbours evidence and also record of the distances and positions of their homes.

    Burger was around 200 metres away and would have heard gunshots but unlikely a cricket bat.

  8. FrankieUK
    December 7, 2014

    william says:
    December 6, 2014 at 6:44 am
    Very telling here is his instruction to Carice to “take my car”. He had no intention of taking Reeva himself or accompanying her to the hospital. She was already dead, he knew it and he needed to clean up the scene…
    Reply

    Pity toe prosecution did not think of that. Reeva’s brain tissue was on the lavatory, so it is unlikely that OP did not know she was dead.

  9. vivdora
    December 7, 2014

    I have often wondered why the ambulance calls were not looked into more.
    OP said Reeva was not breathing when he broke into the toilet and he cried over her. Then he dragged her out of the room, picked her up and carried her downstairs. Then he stuck his fingers in her mouth, a very strange method of resuscitation. If he had wanted to resuscitate her why didn’t he try to do so upstairs and straight away rather than crying over her. He must have known she was dead, he touched her head didn’t he?

  10. Karen
    December 8, 2014

    I had a look back through Juror13’s summaries of Stipp’s and Stander’s testimony. Dr Stipp said he drove to Oscar’s house, parked and that Mr Stander was *speaking on a cell phone* leaning against a white car in the parking lot. He said that Stander motioned him toward the front door. Stipp went inside and came back outside later and asked Stander if the ambulance was on their way. He said no, *he hadn’t called them yet*.

    From the Stander summary:

    “While he was out trying to call the ambulance, Dr. Stipp arrived and introduced himself as Johan and stated that he was a medical doctor. Mr. Stander says HE asked Dr. Stipp to go inside and see if he could assist. He also asked Stipp for the number to an ambulance because he couldn’t get a hold of them. Stipp gave him the number 082911…”

    So according to Stipp (whom I believe), Stander was outside talking on a cellphone and motioned him to go inside. I wonder who Stander was talking to?? When Stipp later asks Stander about the ambulance, he said no, he hadn’t called them yet. He didn’t say he couldn’t get through or that he had the wrong number, but that he hadn’t called them yet.

    Something doesn’t add up. It’s also odd that Stander would quiz Stipp on what he heard and then ring him at 4.30am to tell him Oscar’s lawyer will be in touch….

    • juror13
      December 8, 2014

      Yep… Add to that the wife who makes the comment about hoping it doesn’t get out to the media… Can you say cover up? Happens all the time with celebs. Lots of people willing to pitch in for some sort of return.

  11. jill
    December 9, 2014

    WHAT a shame a timeline wasn’t done for OPs, Standers ,Stipp and Baba in relation to the calls to the ambulance/hospital!!!!! Also were the calls taped by emergency services like they are in the UK?

    OP wanted the body OUT of his house that’s why he was carrying her downstairs and it is why he said ‘everything was fine’-he did not want Baba at his house.He wanted to get the body out of the house before anyone arrived.He realised after the killing that his career would be over so he attempted to prevent this happening-witness testimony and OPs actions that night prove it.The standers were also were complicit along with CP and ,AP.It is shocking.

  12. FrankieUK
    December 9, 2014

    It is a very big step for seemingly respectable people to consider disposing of a body. Maybe OP would, but for Stander and Carice, who I recall is an attorney, that could be a criminal case and the end of Carice’s career. Plenty of people would know where Reeva was that night, so I am not sure I would go as far as thinking they would have disposed of Reeva to save OP’s hide.

    Maybe Stander was calling OP’s lawyer for him.

    I wonder why Masipa threw out all the evidence from the neighbours, who were very believable people. Was she being leaned on, or felt sorry for OP, or just plain wrong?

  13. Clara Bow
    December 9, 2014

    Masipa was incompetent & never should have been assigned to the position of judge. When she threw out Reeva’s messages to OP stating, “I’m scared of you sometimes and how you snap at me and of how you will react to me.” it proved Masipa was out of the loop. Masipa obviously accepts misogyny as standard operating procedure & accepts abusive behavior as something that is part of the “dynamics” of a relationship. That statement by the judge left me stunned & speechless.

    • william
      December 10, 2014

      I was also astounded by her question to Nel about if whatsapp messages were “reliable”. Could Reeva’s own words in black and white not be relied upon!!?

      My guess is that Masipa is not on whatsapp and would have given more weight to the messages if they had been handwritten letters, like in a Jane Austen novel ….

      • Jason
        December 11, 2014

        I read somewhere that lower court judges are a little bit thick/dense/stupid that is why when they ask questions the lawyer has to give them a simple but satisfactory answer. Unfortunately Nels answer could have been better as has been mentioned in a comment in a previous blog entry.

      • william
        December 11, 2014

        I don’t think you should believe everything you read …..

  14. Pamela
    December 11, 2014

    Plan A was to get rid of reevas body, clean up and concoct a plan that reeva had left….Plan B had to be the intruder story – Dr. Stipp scuppers Plan A by arriving just in time to sty the corpse being carried downstairs. Judge Masipa fell for Plan B. Almost as pistorius was her own son.

  15. FrankieUK
    December 12, 2014

    I have always believed he planned it before he killed her. Not before they arrived at the house, but that when he did arrive, he was in a terrible temper because she had met an old boyfriend for coffee. Another factor is because Reeva had a gentle nature, it brought out the bully in him.

    By the time that they had been arguing all evening and into the early hour, he most likely attacked her in the bedroom first. Then he picked up his gun with the intention of claiming he thought she was an intruder. JMO.

    If you know about jealous and abusive men with a short fuse, it is logical.

    Men who don’t mistreat women and lose their temper with women don’t understand it and women who have never had a jealous partner don’t understand it.

  16. Jason
    December 13, 2014

    I am certain the appeal will fail if the primary focus is trying to prove OP knew he was shooting Reeva.

    I think it can succeed and change South African law through case precedent if the appeal focuses on whether or not OP intentionally fired at the PERSON BEHIND THE DOOR and realised that by so doing there was a good chance that he would KILL the PERSON BEHIND THE DOOR.

    The test for proving murder of the PERSON BEHIND THE DOOR is less onerous than the test for proving he knew the person behind the door was Reeva.

    So strategy wise they should focus on person behind the door for maximising likelihood of a murder conviction and for changing S. African Law through case precedent (as indicated by Prof james Grant).

    Remember the appeal itself concerns dolus eventualis of the person behind the door – Masipa accepted mistakes may have been made through errors in law on DE. She said it was a fact that OPs actions following the killing were consistent with OP not intending to shoot at Reeva and that the court found it was a matter of fact that OP thought he was shooting at the intruder (because that’s what he told Stander etc).

    • Jason
      December 13, 2014

      PS I like others do believe the evidence in combination with OP’s testimony can be shown to be most reasonably consistent with OP knowing it was Reeva behind the door – but if they repeat the women screaming between the 1st and 2nd sounds and gunshots last scenario it will be thrown out.

  17. Ruthy Creed
    December 14, 2014

    Mr. Stander was clearly focused on protecting OP. In the midst of a dying young woman , he focuses on asking Dr. Stipp what he heard. Who would even think to ask such a question rather than assuring the victim gets the help needed! What was Stander doing outside all the while Carice was attending to Reeva/Oscar inside the house?

  18. Ruthy Creed
    December 14, 2014

    This question was always in my mind during the course of listening to evidence. Why did Stander respond to DR. Stipp that Emergency had not been contacted yet if he had just minutes before instructed BABA to call police and emergency?? something is not right…

  19. Ajay.
    December 14, 2014

    The ones telling the real story Dr Stipp, Michelle Burger add Van Der Merwe too the blood curdling screams of a woman enough said the liar is the murderer himself.

  20. FrankieUK
    December 15, 2014

    They must have known the victim was dead. Her arm and hip were smashed and her mother said her brains had been blown out of her head.

    • Jason
      December 15, 2014

      In OPs story he was VERY QUICK to KNOW that Reeva was the PERSON BEHIND THE DOOR. Before he broke the door down to check I think he said he screamed like he had never screamed before. The latter can be used as part of an argument supporting he reasonably well knew he had likely killed the person behind the door. His testimony of what he did following the shooting is consistent with him knowing he had likely killed the person,

      I find Judge Masipa’s statement that when OP fired he didn’t fire with the intention or knowledge that he would likely kill the person behind the door ridiculous and inconsistent with the agreed evidence and OPs own testimony. This should form the crux of the Appeal which everyone will have to wait for at least another year.

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This entry was posted on December 5, 2014 by in Oscar Pistorius Trial and tagged , , .
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