Juror13

True crime and trial opinions from a layman's perspective

Oscar Trial – Day 26, May 6 NHLEGENTHWA, MOTSHUANE

OP house

OP neighborhood

The first witness today is Mike Nhlegenthwa. I will refer to him as Mike. He is Oscar’s next door neighbor and lives at #287 Bushwillow Crescent. His profession is civil engineering.

He moved in to the estates in 2009. Oscar was already living there. The builder who was working on Mike’s house introduced him to Oscar. Mike went inside Oscar’s house to get an idea of the finishes that were available. Oscar was the first person to welcome him to the neighborhood.

Their relationship was just a friendly neighbor relationship. They did not socialize together. Mike said every time Oscar would drive by, he’d get out of his car to greet Mike and they would chat. They shared a common interest in cars.

Mike did have the opportunity to meet Reeva once. It was the Sunday prior to the shooting. That day, Oscar was driving a white BMW. He stopped to say hello to Mike and said he wanted to introduce him to somebody. He called for Reeva to come out. Mike stretched out his hand to shake her hand and instead Reeva hugged him. He was really touched by that and thought it was a clear indication of the type of person she was.

Mike also said that when Oscar introduced Reeva, he introduced her as his fiancé. At that point, Reeva gave them some space and went back to the car. Mike said to Oscar, “this one is for keeps.” Oscar told Mike that he was moving to Johannesburg to be closer to her. Mike said it would be sad to lose a neighbor like him, but if it’s for her, then it’s worth it. As they were getting ready to leave, Reeva came back over and gave him another hug. Mike’s comments bring a small smile to June’s face.

June

They look at an aerial photo of the neighborhood and you can see Mike’s house # 287 to the left of Oscar’s house, if you are looking at it from the front.

aerial of neighborhood

Then they look at an aerial photo of the back of the homes and you can see Mike’s house on the right from this view. The red arrows in the photo point out the distances from Mike’s balcony to Oscar’s bedroom balcony, as well as his bathroom windows.

The beginning of Mike’s balcony that can be seen at the very right of this photo is actually his daughter’s room. His bedroom is further to the right (not seen on this photo) at the far end of the balcony.

back side of oscar and mike homes

On Feb 13, 2013, he was home with his wife and children. They went to bed between 10-11pm that night. In the early hours of the morning he was woken up by his wife who said she heard a “bang”. She wasn’t sure if it was inside or outside. He sat up to listen and went to check on his daughter. They always locked their doors at night, and hers was still locked when he checked it. He then checked the rest of the house including the downstairs. He went back upstairs and said he didn’t find anything so it must have been outside.

He then looked out the blinds of his window and didn’t see anything. As he was talking to his wife, he started hearing a man crying very loudly. They knew something was wrong either with a neighbor or perhaps a security guard. He did not turn on any lights because he did not want to be seen looking out the window.

Mike describes that the way the man cried was how somebody cries when they are desperate for help. He assumed the person was in danger. He says it was a very high-pitched cry. He didn’t know which side it was coming from. The only words he could make out from the crying were “no, please, no, no.”

Mike said he wanted to go out to check but his wife would not allow him. So instead he phoned security.
Phones records show that his first call to security was at 3:16:13 but it did not go through. His next call to security was at 3:16:36 and he did get through this time. The call was 44 seconds long. Mike spoke to the guard and informed him that he was at #287 Bushwillow. He asked him to come quickly to his house because he heard a man crying desperately for help. He also told him to check the neighbors around him.

After the phone call, he could still hear the crying.

He then heard the sound of a car coming up the street. When he checked through the blinds, he could see the police buggy over at Stipp’s house.

Stipp house

Mike did not know Dr. Stipp at the time of the incident. He saw security talking to the people at the house, so he assumed the problem was there. But not more than a minute after, he saw the police buggy drive out of the driveway. A person from that house also drove his car out of the garage. They drove in separate directions. Remember, Dr. Stipp testified that he first went to the police gate to make sure it was ok for him to drive to Oscar’s house and Baba drove directly to Oscar’s to check it out.

He then said to his wife that two cars are driving off, which means it must not be at that house. He saw the cars coming closer to them. Mike then walked over to his study which faces the front of his house. He looked through the blinds and saw the buggy at Oscar’s house. At this point, he knew that it would be safer to go. He told his wife he was going.

Mike got dressed and went next door. Roux asks about the lighting in his house. Mike said at the time he went out, he switched on the lights on the ground floor of his house. He mentioned that some of the lights in the house are a bit faint and they sleep with those lights on but to see better he had to switch on more downstairs.

Remember, Annette Stipp testified that there were upstairs lights on at Mike’s house (the house on the right from their vantage point) during both sets of bangs. These may have been the lights that she saw on which means they could have still been sleeping at that point and only woke up later in the sequence of events.

Immediately from there he started walking towards Oscar’s house.

He was able to identify the police buggy, as well as the car that pulled out of Dr. Stipp’s house, as he approached the home. He could still hear the crying coming from the house. Roux asks him if the crying was the same intensity as he heard before. He says this crying voice was a bit low.

The first person he saw was Johan Stander. Mike greeted him and asked “is Oscar ok?” Stander said to him that Oscar is ok but maybe you should check for yourself inside.

Why in the world would Stander send him in to look at that? That’s terrible, if true. He could have simply told Mike that Reeva had been shot. No need to send him in to go look.

Mike went to the door and what he saw, he says, is difficult to explain. He takes a pause and his voice seemed a bit broken for a moment. He goes on to say that he saw Oscar kneeling next to the lady. There was blood all over. Oscar was crying. There was one gentleman inside, Dr. Stipp. Oscar was pleading with him (Dr. Stipp) to help him. He could see that the situation was quite bad and he couldn’t walk any closer. He couldn’t take watching was he was seeing. It was very difficult.

He was still there when the paramedics arrived. They got out with their stretcher. They were struggling to open the other side of the front door. He helped them open that door so they could get in. The stretcher was only in there for about 3 minutes before it was taken out. At that moment, he knew that she was dead. After that, he stayed for about 5-10 minutes and then went back to his house as there was nothing he could do.

Roux asks him what type of blinds he has in his bedroom. He says they are wooden blinds that close horizontally. The light from outside and from inside is not visible through them other than just some streaks of light coming from underneath the slats. He said they close their blinds when they sleep.

At around 10am on February 14, he was approached as he was driving out of his garage by a police officer. The police officer did not properly introduce himself and basically said something to the effect of “hey brother, what happened here?” Mike was not very pleased with the manner in which he talked to him so he told the officer that if he wanted to talk to him, he would need to make a proper appointment to come and see him.

The following day, February 15, there were cars parked outside of Oscar’s house and they sent two female police officers to go speak with Mike again. He also said to them, you see me driving out of my house and you want me to drop everything to talk to you? He didn’t think that was appropriate so he told them the same, make an appointment with me and we can sit down and talk.

A few more days passed and Capt Van Aardt stopped by his house. Mike says that he introduced himself properly and had a business card with him. He felt more comfortable now giving a statement as he felt Van Aardt was more credible. They made an appointment and Van Aardt returned the following week at that time and Mike gave him a statement.

Roux asks if his wife gave a statement as well. He says yes. Roux wants to know where he was when she gave her statement. Mike doesn’t answer that question directly, instead he says that when he gave his statement, she was busy cooking. He was sitting in the dining area speaking with Van Aardt.

So Roux asks again, where were you when she gave her statement? Mike says that after he finished, Van Aardt asked to take a statement from his wife. Mike said no, he would be the only one giving a statement. He didn’t want his wife involved, as a protective measure toward her and his family. Van Aardt explained to him how it works, and assured him that their statements are safe. Mike then allowed his wife to give the statement. He sat with her while she was giving it because he said Van Aardt allowed him to do that.

Mike’s wife told Van Aardt that she heard “help, help, help” that night, however Mike never heard that. He also discussed this with the Defense during their consultation, telling them that he never heard that. Only his wife did.

Roux rests and Nel is up.

Nel mentions that when he consulted with Mike prior to trial, Mike indicated to him that he had followed the whole trial since the start. Nel asks Mike to tell the court what they discussed when they were in consultation. Mike says that Nel asked him if there was anything that he has picked up during trial that he would like to add to his statement. Mike’s response was that he said everything he knows in his statement.

His wife was not present during consultation; Nel spoke with each of them separately.

Mike also says that he told Nel he was surprised to hear about what the further away ear witnesses heard that night, but theorizes that perhaps he was still sleeping at that time and that’s why he didn’t hear the whole incident.

Nel asks, “you never heard any shots?” Mike says no. Nel asks him if he heard any sounds that would be similar to a cricket bat breaking down a door. Mike says he did not hear any bangs like that, nor did his wife.

Nel asks Mike if he ever heard anyone scream. Mike says he only heard a man crying very loudly. He agrees with Nel, that in consultation when they talked there was no mention of screaming.

Nel asks Mike if his wife ever left the room that night. He says no, she did not.

Nel then asks where the faint lights were on in the house that he mentioned earlier. At the time of the incident, they had a young baby at home. If all the lights were off in their bedroom, it would be pitch dark. So at night they leave some lights on in the passage to the dressing room to provide light for them in their bedroom. They also leave a light on leading to their son’s room, and a light on over the stairs. On the ground floor, there is typically a light illuminated as well.

Nel asks him if he ever entered his daughter’s room that night. He said no. He just tested the door knob to make sure it was still locked and listened to hear if she was still sleeping, which she was.

Nel asks him if he associated the crying that he heard with one of his neighbors. Mike says he couldn’t relate it with anyone but does agree that he told the security guard that it could be one of his neighbors; the sound was not far from his house.

Nel says, you know from following the case that the Stipps gave evidence of a woman screaming. He wants to know if Mike heard a woman screaming. He says, no, he did not. Nel also points out the testimony of Burger stating that she heard blood-curdling screams from a woman that night. He asks Mike if he heard that. He says, no, he did not. And Nel points out that Burger heard 4 gunshots at 3:17am. Did he hear that? Mike says it’s quite interesting to hear what others heard, but he did not hear any of those things. He only heard the crying.

Nel points out that Oscar testified that he screamed “like he never had before.” He wants to know if Mike heard that. He says no, as he said, he only heard the loud crying.

Nel asks Mike if he spoke to Oscar that night. He says no. And Nel wants to know if they have spoken since. Mike says no, they have not.

Nel asks Mike if he discussed the incident with Mr. Stander outside that night. Mike says no. The only exchange he had with Stander that night was when he first arrived and asked if Oscar was ok.

Nel asks Mike if he discussed any of this with the security people and Mike says, not at all.

Then finally, Nel asks Mike if he discussed this incident with anybody at the scene that night. Mike says no, he has only spoken with police about the incident.

Next, Nel wants to know if Mike saw any lights on in Oscar’s house that night before he went out of his house. Mike says it wouldn’t have been possible to see in his house at that time. He only looked outside, he didn’t specifically look towards Oscar’s bathroom windows so he didn’t take note of what lights were on.

Nel wraps up by establishing with Mike that he is aware that the Defense asserts that hitting a door with a cricket bat can sound like a gunshot. Nel wants to know if he heard anything like that. Mike says he did not hear any bangs at all that night.

Nel rests. Roux reexamines.

Roux asks Mike why he described the cries as “very loud” and not just as crying. Mike doesn’t know quite how to describe it; just that it was so loud that he believed the man’s life was in danger. He also says it was a “pitched” voice, it was very loud.

Roux then asks if at the same time, a woman was screaming very loudly, would he have heard it. Mike says yes, he would have heard it, but he didn’t.

Roux has no further questions. Mike is excused.

The next witness is Mike’s wife, Eonite Nhlegenthwa. She uses an interpreter for her testimony. She lives in the same home as Mike next to Oscar. She describes herself as a house wife. She does know Oscar, but only as a neighbor. They greet each other when they pass by. They do not socialize together. She had never met Reeva.

On Feb 13, 2013, she was home. She went to bed between 10-11pm. She was awakened in the early morning hours by a bang sound. It was a very loud sound. Roux asks if she knows where it came from. She says she wasn’t sure. She woke her husband up and asked him if he heard the noise.

Her husband got up and left the bedroom to check where the noise came from. He then came back in to the bedroom and she was sitting on the bed. While her husband was looking around the house, she heard somebody yelling “help, help, help.” Roux asks if it was a man or woman’s voice. It was a little difficult to understand the interpreter but I believe she said that it seemed like a “male person’s” voice. After that she heard the crying. She said it sounded like the person needed urgent help. It was very loud. Roux asks if she could hear what the person was saying then. She says no. The person would cry, stop for a while, and then cry again.

Her husband then called security. She didn’t follow the whole conversation that he was having on the phone, because she was very frightened at this stage. Her husband then peered out the window. He told her that a security patrol car was parked in the house across the field (the Stipp’s house.)

He then described to her how the two vehicles left the Stipp’s house and went in different directions. When the cars then passed their house, he went to go see where they went. He came back in to the bedroom and informed her that the car was parked at Oscar’s and he was going out to see what was happening. She did not leave the house at any time.

When he got home, he told her that somebody had passed away at Oscar’s house but he didn’t know what transpired.

Roux rests and Nel is up.

Nel asks her if the “bangshot” woke her up. She answers yes. After that, she woke her husband up. They only had a very short conversation. She heard the “help, help, help” when he was outside of the room investigating the noise. She was afraid of the noise that she heard. Nel establishes with her that she is very awake at this stage and listening to what is going on. And she heard a man crying. But she never heard any other bang sounds.

Nel says, if you look at Dr. Stipp’s evidence of the “help, help, help” that was yelled, you must have heard the last bang of the banging sounds that he heard (which was right around 3:15am+). Mrs. Nhlegenthwa agrees with this.

Nel rests and Roux has no further questions. Mrs. Nhlegenthwa is excused.

The next witness up is Rica Motshuane. She lives at #285 Bushwillow Crescent in Silverwoods Estates. She lives on the right side of Oscar, if you are looking directly at his home. Her husband is Kenneth. She met Oscar once in 2008, when they moved in. Oscar went to their house to welcome them but they weren’t home. So they went to his house the next day to say hello. He invited them in for coffee but they did not have time. This was the only time she had met him. She works for the Dept of Labor.

On Feb 13, 2013, she was home with her husband. They went to bed around 10pm. In the early hours of February 14, she heard a man crying. It was a cry of pain. She woke her husband up and asked him if he heard it. He said yes but he thought he was dreaming. She said to him, no it’s real and the person is panicked. She said to her husband that maybe one of the security guards has been shot. She also heard dogs barking.

Roux asks her if the crying was soft, loud, high or low. She says it was very loud and very close. She even thought it could be inside the house. She said the crying was continuous. They were in a sitting position in their bed. They didn’t switch on the lights. They were kind of frozen in panic. Shortly after, she heard a car passing by and it stopped.

She points out that their bedroom faces the front of their house, which is the opposite side from Oscar’s house. So looking at this picture, their bedroom faces the #285 number on the map.

aerial of neighborhood

So she went to a window on the other side of her house, the side that faces Oscar’s house, and she could see a mini Cooper in the road in front of Oscar’s driveway. (This would have been Carice’s car.) They got back in to bed and wondered what had happened. She then heard another car passing by and stop. She again got out of bed, looked through that same window and saw the security car. She told her husband that she was going to call security to see what happened. She called them but they didn’t answer. After a while, her husband called. They told her husband that they are taking care of the situation.

They went back to bed again but had difficulty sleeping so they just laid in bed and talked about what may be going on.

Roux wants to know how long the time frame was in between the loud crying and the mini cooper pulling up. She thinks maybe 5 minutes, but not more than 10 minutes.

She was approached by Hilton Botha to give a statement. They made an appointment and she did give a statement.
Roux asks at the time you heard the crying, was there anybody else crying or screaming? She says no, she only heard a man crying. Roux asks her if a female had been screaming at the same time, would she have heard it. She believes she would have.

Roux has no further questions. Nel is up.

Nel asks, if you had heard a lady scream, you would have put that in your statement, correct? And she says yes. But she only heard a man crying at about 3:20am that morning according to her statement. She estimated the time because she didn’t look at her clock and didn’t know the exact time.

Nel asks her if she followed the matter in the media. She says yes, she has watched it on TV but she did ask Capt Van Aardt first via SMS message. She was informed that the State would not be calling her so she was free to watch the trial.

Nel asks her, you are aware of the issues that have come up regarding the gunshots, etc. She says she is aware. But she did not hear gunshots that night.

Nel concludes by establishing that when she got up and looked out the window after the crying, the mini cooper was parked in the street. This means that the Standers were already there, and she only heard the tail end of the event where Oscar was crying.

Nel rests and Roux has no further reexamination. Mrs. Motshuane is excused.

The only thing these three witnesses did today, in my opinion, is solidify that they only heard the end of the incident (after the gunshots) and they were able to identify Oscar as a male voice crying. This does not help him at all. It only reinforces the State’s case.

Roux has no further witnesses available for today, and tomorrow is a public holiday, so they will resume on Thursday.

78 comments on “Oscar Trial – Day 26, May 6 NHLEGENTHWA, MOTSHUANE

  1. William
    May 9, 2014

    Looks as if the defence is really struggling to find witnesses to strengthen their very weak case. As you say, these 3 have done them no favours.

    It was really touching to hear about Reeva’s warm greeting of Mike. During the trial we have heard so much about the details of her dead body but nothing of her personality.

    One minor correction: I didn’t listen to Eonite Nhlegenthwa’s testimony but I believe she testified in Tswana – one of our 11 official languages.

    • juror13
      May 9, 2014

      Thanks for the correction 🙂 I edited that.

  2. William
    May 9, 2014

    You are so welcome – great job you’re doing 🙂

    What’s really worrying me at the moment is that prosecution have agreed that the shots came before the bat. I believe that the bangs from the cricket bat came first: bat, screams, shots and then maybe one or two strikes with the bat (heard by Mike’s wife) to break the already-damaged door. Do you agree?

    • juror13
      May 9, 2014

      I think it’s very probable that the first bangs heard by Dr. and Mrs. Stipp were cricket bat strikes. I also think it’s possible that the bangs could have been related to the hole in the bedroom door. But since Mangena and Nel have not discussed the airgun or hole in the bedroom door at all, I can’t really work with that theory too much. I think there is an abundance of evidence that the gunshots that killed Reeva were around the 3:15am+ timeframe. I think that Mrs. N (Mike’s wife) heard the last gunshot. After that noise, there were a few moments before her husband went to investigate. While he was up and investigating in the house, she heard the “help, help, help” which was Oscar after the fact (which Stipp also heard.) And then shortly after, Oscar’s crying started. It all matches up. The neighbors who went out on their balconies that night, or had open windows, and did not have AC running (Stipps, Burger, Johnson and van der Mewre) could hear and differentiate the voices, screams and cries. The neighbors who had closed windows and were not facing OP’s windows (The N’s and the Motshuanes) missed most of the incident, and only heard the last parts of it. Which also means that the bat strikes simply were not loud enough for the majority of the people to hear.

      • William
        May 9, 2014

        I’m looking forward to Gerrie Nel’s closing arguments where he will no doubt string all the pieces together.

        Do you know who presents their closing argument first? Surely whoever is second has an advantage?

      • juror13
        May 10, 2014

        I think Nel’s closing will be epic. He really is a brilliant prosecutor. I have enjoyed watching his work. I’m not sure how it works in SA, but in the U.S. the State goes first then the Defense last.

  3. Nana Venter
    May 10, 2014

    Juror 13… Remember that Oscar on his own testimony cried for help on the balcony BEFORE he put on his legs to yield open the door. That in mind means that neither Mike or his wife heard the bat. That explains why none of the others would have heard the bat. That leaves then the first shots 2 min after 3 to be explained. I can think of the steel inspection plate of the bath… And maybe a shot at Reeva while opening the bathroom window to cry for help… (The tiny wound in finger)
    She then ran to toilet and tried to phone – locks the phone because she panicks
    …then the final killing

    • juror13
      May 10, 2014

      I totally agree that nobody heard the bat strikes (with the possible exception of the Stipps).
      I have really gone back and forth quite a bit with that bedroom door being the bangs that the Stipps heard. I believe firmly that the damage to that door happened during an earlier fight but the fact that Mangena and Nel have not addressed the likely bullet hole in the door, nor did Nel challenge Oscar about him kicking the bottom of the door to try to bust the lock, tells me that they may not have enough solid evidence to confront Oscar on this. Either way, Nel will give a theory about the first set of bangs in his closing argument. He has to! I’m on pins and needles to hear his total summation.

      • nana venter
        July 24, 2014

        I can’t seem to find your summation of the last week of court? That is the two doctors, his manager and the sound expert 🙂 Would love to see your views on that and what impact you think that could have on the verdict…

      • juror13
        July 24, 2014

        Hi Nana, I haven’t completed those summaries yet, but I will hopefully sooner than later.

  4. sarah fernley
    May 11, 2014

    Just wanted to tell you Lisa, that your analysis of the trial has been more insightful and astute than most of the coverage I have read, both here in the UK and the SA media.
    After reading your precis of Day 25, particularly re. the behaviour of Pistorius’s sister on Feb 14th it only reinforces my assumptions about the Pistorius family.
    Whilst they are loyal protectors it doesn’t look like tough love was ever used with Oscar, sadly. And their fight to protect the reputation of the Pistorius name in SA is having, unfortunately, quite the opposite effect.

    • juror13
      May 12, 2014

      Thanks, Sarah 🙂 I’m running a few days behind, still need to do my posts for days 27 & 28. Real life sometimes gets in the way of my trial watching and blogging but I will try to get caught up as soon as possible. The Defense case should be wrapping up this week. I’m always so intrigued by the families of the accused, in particular the ones that are so actively involved. I certainly don’t deny anybody the right to have family support (even when you’ve done something horribly bad) but there’s a big difference between just sitting in court and supporting the person, and stealing things from a crime scene. Aimee sits in court every day constantly muttering what look to be prayers. It looks like she’s chanting. They are definitely an odd bunch.

  5. Alfred99
    May 13, 2014

    Hi Lisa, I also just wanted to let you know that I’m another person who looks forward to your detailed and insightful observation and re-telling of the events in court! 🙂 But I absolutely can understand, since you do it so thoroughly which will cost a lot of time and everydays life going on – that your patient readers will be delighted if they find something here some time. I frequently check :).

    I share the impression of the family – especially Aimee, but also Carl, who also has killied someone.
    One journalist in a german newspaper told about the atmosphere in the courtroom – where a kind of routine and familarity between all the ‘participants’ there has esthablished over the weeks, the families and friends have ‘their’ seats, the journalists also, in the morning all journalists get electricity for their gadgets by shared cords with multi-plugs, where every journalist also has ‘his’ plug and so on. ‘Uncle Arnold’ sometimes even treats coffees to the journos in the cafeteria and told this jounalist: ‘We are not afraid because we know Oscar is innocent’.
    I’m not so sure whether Aimee really believes her brother any more – her facial expression seemed to have changed after the cross-examination – this was the impression I had.
    I assume – they don’t really care whether he is guilty of premed murder or manslaughter or whatever – ‘a Pistorius doesn’t go to jail – for nothing’ – an ‘above-the-law’-attitude. Which may be a heritage of apartheid and colonialism – they always will be the ‘masters’ and maybe they don’t accept the law – made be their former ‘slaves’?
    This is just a wild assumption by my side – I have no idea, whether in Southafrica this might be an issue, I just imgagine it could be like that.

    So – it’s getting really interesting now, with Nels application for observation for mental disorder? As I wrote on twitter – this really backfired for Roux and OP – they just wanted ‘the anxiety’ – not the responsibility.
    On the other hand I’m not to convinced – because then OP could go into observation – could be cleared and the the trial goes on – or – he could be confined to a mental institution and later on could get free on conditions or also without conditions…
    But OP just doesn’t want to go anywhere than walk free – nothing less. That’s his problem.

    ‘nough said – look forward to your opinions! 🙂

    • juror13
      May 14, 2014

      Well it looks like I’ll have some time to catch up now that OP is going to be headed for observation! I’m not surprised by the Judge’s decision this morning. I really don’t think she had any other choice and I believe it’s the fair choice too. I will be enormously curious to see what the appointed doctors have to say about OP. It definitely caught my attention when the Judge said “the State brought the application, but strangely the Defense opposed the application.”

      It is strange. If you are going to put a psychologist on the stand who states that you have a condition that may have affected how you behaved on the day of the murder, of course the State is going to challenge that! I’m trying to wrap my brain around what the Defense is thinking. Did they really want him to be sent for evaluation (and they are pretending that they don’t want that) or are they really just throwing more crap at the wall to see what sticks. Considering that they really do have 3 different defenses in the rotation, it’s really hard to say for sure what they are trying to accomplish.

      What a roller coaster of a trial, but it sure does make it interesting. New postings will be up on the site this week! Thanks for your patience.

      • William
        May 15, 2014

        Alfred, as a South African myself, I think you are absolutely spot on about the “above-the-law” attitude of the family. Oscar’s estranged father’s racist remarks to the press, Aimee and Clarice’s removal of Reeva’s bag (and possibly Oscar’s phone as well) from the secured crime scene and Oscar’s involvement of the elite Hawks investigative unit in a personal spat, are clearly indicative of this.

        Apparently the Pistorius clan form part of an exclusive Pretoria elite: patriarchal, wealthy and politically conservative. It must really rile them that the judge is a black woman. I love it. As a former court reporter who grew up in the townships, she is streetwise and no doubt has a very effective bullshit detector. In the past she has invoked the full weight of the law on cases of domestic abuse. This is clearly an extreme case of domestic violence and she will not miss the opportunity to set an example.

        I believe the last set of “neighbour” witnesses added nothing to the defence’s case apart from them being able to say to the judge: “Look how cool Oscar is, My Lady, he’s got black neighbours.”

  6. Hello, just came across your blog. You’ve done an amazing job. Thank you for your efforts.

    I’m on twitter and there’s a couple of tweets that I’ve written which have largely gone without response, so I’d like to ask your opinion if I could.

    Firstly : The issue of the alarm.

    Oscar has played on his fear of intruders and break-ins indeed it’s the main point of his defence. However I question the extent of his fear. You see when the assessor asks Oscar if Reeva knows how to use the alarm, Oscar replies “I don’t know”. Now this would mean that it’s highly likely Oscar doesn’t alarm his house when he’s out. So he’s not THAT worried about break-ins. The reason I say this is because Reeva arrives home before him on that day and she’s cooking in the kitchen when he arrives. Meaning she has not needed to deactivate any alarms, otherwise Oscar would have said “YES, Reeva knows how to use the alarm because every time I’m out she let’s herself in”.

    Secondly (and I’m just going to paste and paraphrase what I’ve already written on twitter), for me where Oscar screams for help three times. The location of where he screams for help I believe is from the bathroom window, NOT the balcony.

    My tweets paraphrased and slightly elaborated :

    Oscar can’t admit to screaming from bathroom window because for his story he needs a) to maintain his fear that there are still possible intruders at the bathroom window (otherwise Nel would have said you clearly weren’t scared of someone else about to enter through that window or still people on ladders outside).

    b) He also can’t admit to immediately screaming for help from that window because his ‘story’ he needs to check bedroom before he can assume Reeva’s in the toilet. (Otherwise again Nel would say how did you know it was her without checking bedroom first).

    So Oscar needs to fit his scream for help x3 with a timeline of what witnesses hear but he also needs to say he’s checked for RS in bedroom so balcony becomes the NEW location of his scream to fit his story.

    Not only that he also needs to explain why the balcony door is open in crime scene pictures. Where as, as we all know that was his excuse in the first place for having his back turned to Reeva that he was CLOSING balcony door therefore they were closed. So Oscar now needs the door to be BOTH CLOSED and then OPEN. That’s why Nel picks up on him about the awkwardness of Oscar having to unlock doors, move fans out the way to scream out of the door for help all the while STILL having a gun in his hand.

    It’s also easier for the witnesses at the back of the house the Stipp’s, Standers and so on to hear the three scream for help from a man if it comes from the bathroom window, not the bedroom balcony which would have been at the side of the house.

    In my opinion the balcony doors were NEVER CLOSED.

    Looking forward to your updates.

    Regards,

    James.

    • juror13
      June 2, 2014

      Hey James,

      I’ve been revisiting your comments above about Oscar yelling help 3x from the bathroom and I agree with you on this. We are both also in agreement that the balcony was open all night long. And the position of the duvet and the fans prevent anybody from running out on to that balcony at any time during the incident. So yes, logically he was not yelling help from the bedroom balcony. He was yelling it from inside near an open window… the bathroom. That’s really the only way that Burger/Johnson could have heard it from their distance. It’s a great point you make and one that I hope Nel includes in his closing!

  7. Susanne
    May 15, 2014

    I do not have anything particular to contribute to the case discussion . But I did want to thank you for your outstanding work here: very insightful and interesting – thank you very much!

  8. Debbie
    May 17, 2014

    Thank you for this blog. Very insightful! I often refer to it when making my own summary of the trial. Looking forward to the outstanding days…

  9. Carry
    May 17, 2014

    I also would like to say thank you for the work here… useful and interesting… Thangs from Germany

  10. William
    May 22, 2014

    Here’s what I believe happened (more or less) that night:

    Something (we may never know what) sparks an argument between Reeva and Oscar (neighbour Mrs van der Merwe testified about loud voices between 2am and 3am). In a rage he chases her upstairs and she tries to shut him out of the bedroom (marks on bedroom door). He forces his way in. There is a struggle on the bed. He pulls her jeans off (that’s why they were inside out) and they end up on the floor with the duvet. Was he perhaps trying to rape her or just prevent her from leaving?

    She grabs another pair of jeans, he goes after her with the cricket bat, she runs to the bathroom and opens the window, screaming (heard by Burger & Johnson). She possibly considers jumping. The jeans end up on the ground outside under the bathroom window (see crime scene pics) There is a struggle in the bathroom (unexplained dented metal plate on bath) and she manages to flee into the toilet and lock the door.

    He attacks the door with the bat. (These are possibly the first set of bangs heard by the Stipps, although the damage to the bedroom doors and the metal plate in the bathroom would also have produced bangs). She is screaming desperately (heard by Stipps, Burger and Johnson). She’s trapped in the toilet, probably without her phone (I don’t believe she had it with her in the toilet – she had either dropped it in the bathroom or he had taken it away from her) and her boyfriend behaving like a mad man, shouting “so call the police” and “get the fuck out of my house” (he said this in his bail application because he realized that the neighbours may have heard).

    He gets his gun and deliberately shoots four shots into the door.

    He then breaks the already-damaged toilet door open with the cricket bat. He realises he has killed Reeva and starts crying desperately (heard by the Nhlegenthwas and Rica Motshuane who must have slept through earlier screams and bangs/shots because their balcony doors were closed). He drags her body out of the toilet, at some stage making calls to Stander, then Netcare as well as receiving a call from security where he tells the guard “everything is okay”. He carries the dying, or probably already-dead, Reeva downstairs (before attempting to stop the bleeding?) in the hope that the Standers will take her to hospital and he can start cleaning up the scene.

    When the Standers arrive, followed shortly by security and Dr Stipp he swings into “rescue” mode and when they ask him what happened he comes up with the intruder story.

    • juror13
      May 24, 2014

      Very plausible theory, William! All makes sense. The only element I’m not sure about is the inside out jeans. For some reason, I don’t think he ripped them off of her. I can’t really give you an explanation why I feel that way, pure speculation on my behalf, in my mind that one piece doesn’t fit the story.

      I believe the fight started downstairs in the front area of the house where Mrs. van der Mewre could hear it (facing her bedroom balcony). When the fight moved upstairs and eventually to the back bathroom, she could no longer hear it. She described the arguing as “intermittent.” After the bangs (the gunshots), all she heard was crying. The reason she only heard Oscar crying (and not Reeva’s screaming) was because Oscar was crying in the front of the house as he came down the stairs. Again, facing her balcony. Reeva’s heightened screams occurred in the back of the house, away from her balcony.

      The bedroom door being banged in at the lock and at the door handle indicate somebody tried to lock somebody out. The pellet holes in the door indicate somebody shooting at the door (seems to be a regular occurrence in this household).

      The seemingly thrown duvet, jeans, and iPads on the floor indicate a fight/chase/frustration of some sort.

      The banging of the metal plate in the bathroom, phone on floor with cover knocked off, beyond excessive damage to toilet door and tiles all indicate something way beyond a simple mistaken shooting. Somebody would have to ignore A LOT of very damning stuff in that upstairs area to believe the ridiculous phantom intruder hiding in a toilet story.

      • William
        May 24, 2014

        Not sure about the jeans myself but the only time my jeans end up inside out is if someone else pulls them off from the waist – which doesn’t happen too often! 🙂

      • juror13
        May 24, 2014

        Well cheers to the weekend! May your pants end up where they shouldn’t be 🙂

  11. joliepetite
    May 24, 2014

    I think the reason that the jeans are inside out is a lot more banal. Didn’t Reeva send OP a message on 13th saying that she had stayed at his house during the day to do some work and some washing and was leaving at 6 p.m.? I think she had washed the jeans inside out to stop the colour fading. From my experience it’s pretty difficult to get jeans off (if they are fashionably tight) so I can’t imagine somebody else being able to rip them off whilst the other person is resisting and fighting.

  12. ptiteange
    May 27, 2014

    Your website makes for interesting reading. But why do you say that the second bangs were around 3:15 when the phone times and evidence from witnesses about when they heard the bangs suggests they were at 3:17?

    • juror13
      May 27, 2014

      There does appear to be a 1-2 minute discrepancy between all of the reports. My 3:15+ assertions are based on Baba’s security records.

      According to security phone records, Dr Stipp reported the gunshots to Baba at 3:15:51. He heard the shots (second set of bangs) as he was dialing so they had to occur briefly, maybe seconds, before 3:15:51, if those records are correct.

      Mrs Stipp testified that her clock said 3:17 when she heard the shots but she also said her clock was usually 3-4 minutes fast.

      Mr Nhlengethwa tried getting thru to security at 3:16:15 but there was no answer. He got thru at 3:16:36. The noise prompted his call, so again it indicates prior to 3:17.

      But then we do have Johnson who testified that his call to a different security co ended at 3:16:59 and the shots (second bangs) occurred immediately after he hung up suggesting a shot time of 3:17.

      So we’re really dealing with a time span between 3:15-3:17. I can’t say with any certainty an exact time.

  13. ptiteange
    May 28, 2014

    The Stipps both claim that Dr Stipp rang 10111 then heard 3 bangs. They testified that he then rang security after 10111. We know they got the order wrong because according to phone logs Dr Stipp called security at 3:15 (Baba says he got through) and then 10111 at 3:17. (Unless there are other calls not mentioned in court)

    Dr Stipp heard at man cry ‘help’ 3 times after the call to security.

    If Burger/Johnson are right, then Dr Stipp called security at 3:15 to report the first ‘shots’, then heard the man shout ‘help’ 3 times, then called 10111 at 3:17 and then heard the second ‘shots’. This is what Burger/Johnson heard.

    If the Stipps are right, then Burger/Johnson must be mistaken about when they heard the man shout ‘help’ 3 times and the bangs they heard.

    There are no inconsistencies in Burger/Johnson’s evidence but the Stipps got the phonecalls in the wrong order, so I’d be inclined to believe Burger/Johnson about the timing.

    If that’s the case, then Mike’s call at 3:16 was about the first ‘shots’, not the second, and the screaming was Oscar’s.

    Maybe there are other phonecalls we don’t know about of course ;).

    It also seems more reasonable to me that Mrs VDM, the Stipps and the security guard all heard ‘shots’ at around 3 but only people who were in direct line with the open bathroom window heard ‘shots’ at 3:17 despite there being many people who were awake by then. This suggests the first ‘shots’ were much louder than the second unless you are in direct line with the open bathroom window.

    Anyway, it does seem to me that all of this leads to the conclusion that the defence version is more likely.

    I can’t wait for the closing arguments 🙂 then it will all become much clearer which evidence each side is relying on.

    • juror13
      May 29, 2014

      Respectfully, there is absolutely nothing about the defense’s case that is more likely.

    • juror13
      May 29, 2014

      Another detail about Dr Stipp that was compelling was how he described the figure in the window moving right to left. That was after Baba left so assuming it took just a few minutes for him to get there after the 3:15:51 call, Dr Stipp was seeing Oscar moving around the bathroom around 3:19, exactly when he was getting Reeva out of the bathroom and calling Stander.

      I think Roux intentionally jacked everybody up with the phone records. He made it very confusing and tried to make the Stipps look unreliable when in actuality, they have provided some really solid details about that night.

    • juror13
      June 1, 2014

      I’m re-listening to the earlier ear witness testimony to see what I can pick up the second time around… You know what’s interesting… during Estelle van der Mewre’s testimony (on direct) she states that she heard 4 gunshots around 3am. Not exactly at 3am, but around 3am. She is speaking in Afrikaans and the interpreter translated her words as “gunshots”. Roux stood up and objected to that.

      Nel agrees and says the word that she used should have been translated to something more like “explosions”. Roux still objects and disagrees. He wanted to make sure that they did not say gunshots or explosions.

      After some more questioning by Nel, he is able to get her to act out what they sounded like and she said “bang bang”. She went on to say that they were one right after the other.

      In hindsight, it initially struck me as weird that Roux was objecting to that because we know the defense wants the shots to be at 3am, not around 3:17. Most people assume Estelle heard them at 3am because she said “around 3am”. BUT… Estelle then reports silence after the shots. Then crying (identified as Oscar by her husband) and shortly after, cars arriving on the scene. She heard the 3:17 shots. The reason that Roux did NOT want “gunshots” to be on the record is because he knows that she heard the last set of bangs (gunshots) and the court will figure that out when they consider what she heard after. She did not hear blood-curdling screams. She only heard crying and then all of the cars started arriving.

  14. ptiteange
    May 29, 2014

    I see you don’t wish to engage with anything that might favour the defence. Fair enough.

    Your blog is very informative. Keep up the good work!

    • juror13
      May 29, 2014

      It’s not so much that I don’t want to engage, it’s really just that things have progressed so far and there is a mountain of issues with the defense case. I see Oscar’s guilt very clearly.

      The first set of bangs and the timeline of ear witnesses, no doubt, is a thorn in all of our sides because nothing is a 100% fit. BUT with that said, even when you entertain that the first bangs were the shots, the ear witnesses don’t fit the bail or the plea statements.

      The Stipps both very clearly heard immediate screams after the first bangs and saw the light on. Oscar did not immediately scream in any of his stories, including what he said on stand. He also was adamant about the light being off.

      Somebody is slightly off on the “helps” and I tend to think it may be Burger/Johnson because Stipp not only testified about hearing it after the 2nd set of bangs but he described that it was more to the left than where the woman was screaming. The left would be the vicinity of Oscars bedroom or could possibly be from the front of his house.

      Sorry if I was abrupt before. It’s late and I’m zzzzzz. I welcome any and all comments even if I don’t agree 🙂

      • William
        May 30, 2014

        I believe that Oscar shouted for help on two occasions: once before he shot Reeva (possibly mocking her or asking God/Jesus for help for what he was about to do) and then again after the shooting.

  15. ptiteange
    May 29, 2014

    I agree that the Stipps added detail to the events of the night but I’m not sure that that means that they are right in every respect. We know at the least (unless the phone records as read out in court are incomplete) that they got the order of the phone calls to security and 10111 the wrong way round. It doesn’t add anything that Dr Stipp saw a man moving in the bathroom really unless I’ve misunderstood that. Nor does it add to the state’s case that he heard the man’s shouts of ‘help’ more to the left – ie more like towards the bedroom – that’s where the defence say they came from.

    Oscar said that he screamed immediately after shooting and continued to scream so it isn’t true that their evidence contradicts the defence case on this point. Though it’s very possible that he wasn’t clear about this matter, as on so many others ;).

    The only really damning part of their evidence in my view is that they saw lights on immediately after the first bangs. And both saw the lights. However, Dr Stipp saw lights on at Mike’s house at the same time. He only had night lights on then with blinds and switched house lights on later. Mrs Stipp saw a light on in the toilet which must have been a light from a mobile if that’s possible, or light from the bathroom. If she is right, the toilet door was open as it wasn’t broken at that point on anybody’s version. It’s unlikely it was a mobile if the state’s case is true as Reeva would surely have phoned for help at some point in the next 15 minutes. The state will say one of the Stipps made a mistake about which lights were on but not about the timing, and the defence will say they must have seen the lights later (and they got the order of other events that night wrong too).

    I suppose my point is that while the defence case doesn’t look very plausible, I’m not terribly convinced by the state’s case either. What were the first bangs on the state’s version, I wonder?

    It seems to me that the state’s best case would be an argument, shots on stumps with lights on at 3 then everything happened as Oscar said including him screaming (because he’s ruined his life).

    Can you see a plausible version of events from the state’s perspective? Adv. Nel seems confident so there must be such a thing 🙂

    Sorry for the long message. You needn’t respond if I’m hurting your head! 🙂

    • juror13
      May 29, 2014

      Dr. Stipp seeing a man in the bathroom window after speaking with Baba, which means it was probably around 3:19 or later, means that the shots were closer to that timeframe, not closer to 3am as the Defense would allege. And I hear what you are saying about the yells of “help” coming from the left appearing to help the Defense case, but in actuality it’s relevant to the State’s case because it occurred AFTER the second set of bangs. With Johnson/Burger being at a further distance, we may need to factor in how the sound travels. Things may not be heard exactly the same way from a few more houses down than they would be only 72 meters or so away with absolutely nothing in between open windows and open doors.

      The physical evidence in the bedroom hugely supports that Oscar was not fiddling around on the right side of the bed, nor was he out on his balcony. I think it clearly shows that his door was open all night and yelling help from anywhere in that vicinity of the bedroom could carry out that open door.

      As for Oscar saying that he screamed immediately after the shots, I could strongly debate this with you all day long. He did not scream immediately after the shots. All he said was that he yelled to Reeva to call the police. That is very different that screaming high-pitched like a woman in terror. He also describes backing out of the bathroom, in the dark, slowly to keep an eye on the door as he’s doing it. He gets to the bed, feels it, then gets on top of it and crosses over it. He gets off on the right side, runs his hands along the curtains.

      He says he is suspecting that it could be Reeva in the bathroom (as soon as he reached the bed) which makes absolutely no sense! How do you go from being 100% sure it’s an intruder when shooting, to being not sure when reaching the bed in total darkness only a minute after. He hasn’t even conducted a search for her yet. So how do you make that leap? I’ll tell you… it is not possible in the real world.

      All the while he is crawling across the bed, feeling curtains.. he is not screaming at the top of his lungs in the voice of a woman. None of that even remotely makes sense. The Stipps are hearing terrified screaming all throughout this time, AND THE BATHROOM LIGHT IS ON. Again, Oscar was quite adamant, the light was not on yet. He only started layering in his cries to God, oh help me Jesus, please Lord, etc, etc, when Nel was really cornering him on the stand about his lack of screams that match up with the neighbors. It was embarrassingly obvious that he was adding in whatever he could possibly say to make it sound better. But even when you are praying to the Lord for help, it’s not the same as screaming at the top of your lungs. Go ahead and try it right now. Yell out help me God as loud as you can, and does that sound the same as a woman shrieking in terror? I say it does not.

      • William
        May 30, 2014

        I posted this link on Facebook a couple of weeks ago. It would be hilarious if it wasn’t so damn tragic. I agree 100% with the final sentences:

        “I am starting to think that anyone who truly believes this man is innocent is slightly divorced from reality. It’s the biggest load of bullcrap I have ever, ever heard. Seriously.”

      • juror13
        May 30, 2014

        I agree!

  16. RITAINNJ
    June 10, 2014

    I have reviewed Dr. Stipp’s evidence at least 3 times to clearify the inaccurate evidence posted by “ptiteange” regarding the timeframe of the gunshots and the time of the call where he finally did get thru. I invite all to listen carefully to his and his wife’s evidence again: @3:15:51(16 sec) is the call that he got thru to security for 16 seconds (he had tried to call before with no answer,then dialed 10111 which a recording said the number dialed was out of order) . as he was about to dial security again, he heard the 2nd set of 3 gunshots(told his wife to move away from the window) then got thru to security. Reeva was shot BEFORE 3:15:51!! Roux was confusing matters with his insistence that Stipp got thru on the first try! calls were NOT out of sequence (roux was out of order)!! This corresponds to Mr. Neghenthwa call logged @ 3:16:13 am he had already been investigating the ‘bang’ sound his wife had heard minutes BEFORE this call…Reeva was not shot @3:17 am!!! Nel did argue that but he was about 2 to 3 minutes off….. Now, if one goes by Oscar’s version that he shot her @ 3 am. why were the lights in the bathroom on? and what was he doing for 19 minutes and 3 seconds until he called Stander @ 3:19:03? MAKES ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE! The only loose end the prosecutor needs to tie up is the first set of shots heard by Stipp’s, Van Merwe and the patrolling officer that night…I have a hunch it may be related to the damage on the silver plate and the tiles falling off the bottom of the bathroom wall under the opened window…It had to be an action Oscar did that frightened Reeva out of her mind (terrifying, blood curdling screams) and loud enough for Van Merwe, Stipp’s and patrolling officer to hear.

  17. RITAINNJ
    June 10, 2014

    juror13, Nel hinted that the inside out jeans on the floor by the duvet suggested that Reeva was getting ready to put them on and leave, but in a” haste” had to drop them and run towards the bathroom, suggesting she was scared and had to run….

  18. ptiteange
    June 17, 2014

    So the 10111 call was not at 3:17 as stated by Roux? Dr Stipp got through to security at 3:15 but he said that was after the 3:17 10111 call. This is a discrepancy unless he called 10111 twice. The call to security where he did not get through was at 3:27 according to Roux, and this was not challenged by Nel. So I don’t understand your point. Dr Stipp seems to be confused about the order in which things happened (on the face of it). Nel didn’t object when these points were put to Dr Stipp and he surely would have if Roux had been misleading the witness.

    And Burger/Johnson were clear about the timing of the bangs as at 3:17 by his phone call. Do you suggest that they are accurate in regards to the screaming and the bang-bang,bang,bang (Burger) but not about when they heard the bangs and screaming in relation to the phone calls?

    Could you explain how what I’ve said is inaccurate? We don’t have a complete list of all the calls made and times and perhaps there were others made not mentioned in court that would clarify things, but that doesn’t alter the evidence that was presented in court.

    I don’t understand your logic in stating categorically that the evidence shows that the shots were at 3:15. It only shows that they could have been, but it also shows that they could have been at 3:17.

  19. RITAINNJ
    June 18, 2014

    ptiteange: I don’t know where you are getting your information from, i cannot argue with inaccurate or speculative statements. This is what I have gathered from reviewing the testimony from trial:

    FEB14, 2013 Timeline of calls as per evidence presented:

    1:56 A.M Estelle Van Merwe hears a female voice loudly in an argument for about 1 hour. She dozed off.
    3:00 (about)AM Estelle Van Merwe hears 4 gunshot sounds.
    3:15:51 (16 sec) Dr. Stipp calls Security. Had heard 3 gunshots @about 3 am, female screams, as he is thinking who to call next he hears another 3 gunshots. He then gets thru at 3:15:51, Reeva had been shot. Heard male scream “help help help” shortly after (the gunshots) ending this call.
    *3:16 (58s sec) Mr. Johnson dialed to wrong security # – Had heard female screams, female followed by male screams for help help help. After he drops the phone, he runs to balcony hears female screams and then the 4 gunshots with the female voice fading. This places the gunshots later than the Stipp’s & Nheglenthwa’s evidence and places the male HELPS before the gunshots. Burgers timeline not consistent with Stipp’s or Neghenthwa.
    3:16:13 & 3:16:36(44 sec.) Mr. Nheglenthwa got thru on 2nd try, he had heard male voice crying helps & his wife had woken up from a bang and then male help help help. The gunshot were heard minutes BEFORE 3:16:13.

    3:19:03 (24 sec) OP calls Johan Stander Silver woods manager to assist him, Clarice Stander had heard the male yells for help.
    @3:20:05 (66sec) OP calls Ambulance 089111
    @3:21:23 (9 sec) OP calls Security Baba, call drops
    @3:22:05 (12 sec) Security Baba returns his OP’s call
    @3:24 Baba & Stander arrive @ OP ‘s home first on scene (Stander enters and tells Baba to assure no cars parked in front of home and to contact police and paramedics.
    Dr. Stipp arrives @OP, after evaluating injuries, asks Mr. Stander if the ambulance are on their way, when Mr. Stander says ‘no’ :
    @3:27:04 Dr. Stipp calls Hospital Emergency Dept, they direct him to call ER 911 Center
    @3:28 Mr. Stander ‘dutifully’ calls ER 911 and hands the phone to Dr. Stipp to describe nature of injuries

    @3:55 Col VanRensburg arrives @ scene, Ambulance is there.
    @3:55:02 (123 sec) OP calls Justin Devaries ” I killed my baba”
    @4:01:57 (54 sec) OP calls Andrich Carl his brother.
    @4:09:03- 3 calls to Piette (Oscar’s coach)
    @4:11:15 (49 sec) Piette returns call

    From this documented (from phone logs) timeline it is clear that the gunshots were @ about 3:12 to 3:14 AM.

    The second set of gunshots heard by the Stipp’s could not be the cricket bat since as per OP’s version , he yelled Help help help BEFORE getting the cricket bat , Stipps heard the male helps AFTER the GUNSHOTS!

  20. Rita Castel
    June 19, 2014

    Roux was trying to confuse Stipp about the 3:27 call…dr. stipp replied ” i dont have the phone records in front of me so i cannot say…The 10111 call was not connected(no record of that), on Stipp’s first try, there was no answer and on the 2nd try a recording said ”this number is out of order’ …As he was contemplating who to call next, he heard the 2nd set of gunshots sounds, told his wife to move away from the balcony and then reached security @3:15:51 reporting the shots he had heard.

  21. ptiteange
    June 24, 2014

    Ritaainnj, I don’t think we are disagreeing about the key facts you give. I agree with you. The Burger/Johnson timing doesn’t fit with the Stipps. I just don’t see why Mr and Mrs N couldn’t have heard the first noises at 3. It took Dr Stipp 15 minutes to run around and listen before calling security so why can’t it take Mr N the same approx.? I think the reason why you dismiss it is because it would place the woman’s screams at the same time as the male cries and you don’t think that happened.

    But if they heard only the first noises then why did they not hear the second. Probably for the same reason that Mrs VdM and her husband didn’t hear the second bangs either, even though they were awake at the time. If the second bangs were the much louder shots then surely Mr and Mrs VDM would have heard them too. So perhaps the second bangs were much quieter.

    In your summary, you have missed out part of Dr Stipp’s testimony:(From this blog)
    “He noticed that the house directly to the right of Oscar’s had all of their lights on. And in Oscar’s house, the bathroom light was on. Dr. Stipp went back inside and called Silverwood security. There was no answer. So then he called 10111 (not sure what this is), got a fast ringing. While he was trying to figure out who to call next, he heard another 3 loud bangs. He thought that these also sounded like gunshots. He told his wife to get away from the window, fearing for her safety. He eventually got through to the security. He reported what he heard and they said they would send someone”
    The 10111 call was at 3:17 according to Roux. This potentially places the second bangs at 3:17 and agrees with Burger/Johnson. Dr Stipp’s first call to security was at 3:15 according to Roux which could place the second bangs at around 3:15. Stipp was adamant that he didn’t get through till later but Roux said he did. If the second bangs were around 3:15 then Mr and Mrs N’s man’s cries were not at the same time as the female screaming but then Burger/Johnson are wrong about the timing of the bangs.

    Finally, I wonder about the defence sound tests in which a woman screamed in the toilet. I assume we will hear more or maybe the evidence relating to that will be given to the court in other materials. I don’t remember what all the witnesses heard, but I think none heard a woman acreaming on the night of the sound tests but they all heard a man or men? Am I right? Several witnesses recall that the screams on 13th Feb 2013 crescendoed until the final shot, so they must have been while she was in the toilet. But if the witnesses didn’t hear the female screaming in the sound tests (but did hear male shouting) then that does suggest that it wasn’t her screaming. I haven’t looked at this part of the evidence though – I hope you will set me straight if my facts are wrong.

  22. Rita Castel
    June 25, 2014

    I will paraphrase the incorrect statements you made above, with the correct ones from the trial evidence:

    1. “Dr Stipp’s first call to security was at 3:15 according to Roux which could place the second bangs at around 3:15.” this should read Dr. Stipp’s last call @ 3:15;51(16 sec) places the second bangs just a few moments BEFORE that call ….this is the one he got thru and was recorded in the phone records as per BABA.

    2. “I just don’t see why Mr and Mrs N couldn’t have heard the first noises at 3.” The N’s were asleep when this occurred. Ms. Stipp was NOTsleeping when she heard those first 3 bangs (she was about to get up to get a hot drink) she looked at her clock that runs 3 to 4 min fast, it read 3:02. she was facing an open balcony by her bed right across Oscar’s opened bathroom window and that light ON. Just as Van Merwe had been trying to sleep with a pillow over her ears from the loud female voice arguing with someone, when she dozed off and heard those bangs at about the same time…Listen to Baba’s evidence, the patrolling officer came in moments after Stipp’s call and said he had heard rifle shooting sounds too( he was not sleeping)…Burger/johnson were also sleeping and much further in distance..woke up from the woman’s terrifying screams…

    3.”The 10111 call was at 3:17 according to Roux. ” Roux got that 3:17 number from Ms. Stipp who looked at the clock again (runs 3-4 min fast) moments before the 2nd bangs.(in reality it was 3:14 am) when her husband was inside trying to call a third attempt. Listen yourself to the testimony, i did 3x…why would Stipp try to call 10111 again after he had reached security @3:15:51 and they confirmed they were on their way to his house?? .
    4.”Mr and Mrs N’s man’s cries were not at the same time as the female screaming “. Ms. N had heard the last bang that the Stipp’s heard from second set of bangs, then they both heard the male yell ‘help help help.” same timing..as per phone timeline.

    I urge you to listen to the testimony…as far as the woman/man scream tests are concerned, I did NOT pay much attention to that evidence as it is not based on the same circumstances as the night of the killing. Many new homes were built to block the travel of noise. many factors were not the same so it is not something I would take in account …and neither will the judge.

    From all this , it is fair to say that by 3:15:51 , Reeva had been shot and could no longer scream….

    • ptiteange
      June 25, 2014

      I will paraphrase the incorrect statements you made above, with the correct ones from the trial evidence:
      > see my comments below:

      1. “Dr Stipp’s first call to security was at 3:15 according to Roux which could place the second bangs at around 3:15.” this should read Dr. Stipp’s last call @ 3:15;51(16 sec) places the second bangs just a few moments BEFORE that call ….this is the one he got thru and was recorded in the phone records as per BABA.
      > http://www.enca.com/south-africa/oscar-trial-focus-reevas-last-moments
      See where Roux says the 10111 call was at 3:17. So the 3:15 call was not the last call. Or look on YouTube.

      2. “I just don’t see why Mr and Mrs N couldn’t have heard the first noises at 3.” The N’s were asleep when this occurred. Ms. Stipp was NOTsleeping when she heard those first 3 bangs (she was about to get up to get a hot drink) she looked at her clock that runs 3 to 4 min fast, it read 3:02. she was facing an open balcony by her bed right across Oscar’s opened bathroom window and that light ON. Just as Van Merwe had been trying to sleep with a pillow over her ears from the loud female voice arguing with someone, when she dozed off and heard those bangs at about the same time…Listen to Baba’s evidence, the patrolling officer came in moments after Stipp’s call and said he had heard rifle shooting sounds too( he was not sleeping)…Burger/johnson were also sleeping and much further in distance..woke up from the woman’s terrifying screams…
      > Repeating things doesn’t make them right :). None of that means that Mrs N didn’t hear the last of the first bangs – the ones that Mrs VdM and the security guard heard at around 3. The timing of the second bangs is in dispute so it’s unclear which bangs Mrs N heard but you can’t say for sure that it was the second bangs.

      3.”The 10111 call was at 3:17 according to Roux. ” Roux got that 3:17 number from Ms. Stipp who looked at the clock again (runs 3-4 min fast) moments before the 2nd bangs.(in reality it was 3:14 am) when her husband was inside trying to call a third attempt. Listen yourself to the testimony, i did 3x…why would Stipp try to call 10111 again after he had reached security @3:15:51 and they confirmed they were on their way to his house?? .
      > see point 1 above. Or look on YouTube. The 10111 timing is from phone records,not Mrs Stipp.

      4.”Mr and Mrs N’s man’s cries were not at the same time as the female screaming “. Ms. N had heard the last bang that the Stipp’s heard from second set of bangs, then they both heard the male yell ‘help help help.” same timing..as per phone timeline.
      > You are confusing your theory with evidence. They heard a bang before 3:16. If the second bangs were at 3:15 or earlier then you are right, but if they were at 3:17 then you are wrong. The ‘help’ shouts are consistent with the Stipps in the first instance and with Burger/Johnson in the second.

      I urge you to listen to the testimony…as far as the woman/man scream tests are concerned, I did NOT pay much attention to that evidence as it is not based on the same circumstances as the night of the killing. Many new homes were built to block the travel of noise. many factors were not the same so it is not something I would take in account …and neither will the judge.
      > I should listen I know but it is all over the place on YouTube and I don’t have the time :). Re: “I did NOT pay much attenditon to that evidence…” Oh dear. So you are saying that all crime reconstructions are a total waste of time because you can’t ever completely reconstruct circumstances? The tests highly suggests that they didn’t actually hear screaming from inside a closed toilet if no one heard it on the sound test night but they did hear male shouting. It doesn’t prove anything absolutely, but it does add to doubt at the least and to dismiss it as not worth even looking at is very odd.

      From all this , it is fair to say that by 3:15:51 , Reeva had been shot and could no longer scream….
      > Well, I can only say that I disagree that it is fair to say that. It is possible. But it is also possible that she was shot earlier and the screams weren’t hers.

      On a final note, I thought at first that Roux’s suggestion that Burger/Johnson had heard bat strikes as shots was really desperate and quite ridiculous. Then we had Dr Stipp’s testimony about hearing 2 sets of ‘shots’. So it then became apparent that he and his wife had misinterpreted at least one set of sounds as shots, so Roux’s suggestion suddenly looked much less desperate and ridiculous. Without the Stipps’ evidence, we’d all be trying to fit the evidence around 1 set of shots when there were in fact 2 sets of shot sounds. It is this context that I don’t think it isn’t totally inconceivable that the female screams evidence is also a mistake.

  23. Rita Castel
    June 25, 2014

    As stated correctly on this blog: “Nel says, if you look at Dr. Stipp’s evidence of the “help, help, help” that was yelled, you must have heard the last bang of the banging sounds that he heard (which was right around 3:15am+). Mrs. Nhlegenthwa agrees with this.

    • ptiteange
      June 25, 2014

      It is Nel’s contention that the shots were just before 3:16, which he made clear by the way he cross-examined the defence ‘ear’ witnesses. That a witness agrees with a suggestion based on a particular scenario being put to them does not make it more or less likely to be true though.

  24. Rita Castel
    June 26, 2014

    Yes, you are correct in that i did find the place on day4 part 3 (wildabouttrial.com pistorius archives) @1:34 mark, where Roux puts it to Stipp that the 2nd set of bangs were @ 3:17 exactly when Burger/Johnson heard these sounds. He went further in saying that ‘when u were on the phone @3:17 with 10111 u heard the bangs again. Yet, there was NO physical phone log presented to show this this call to 10111 because Stipp did not get thru to them. I believe (i may be wrong) Nel missed that question without objecting to see Stipp’s phone recs. I have a whole folder of notes i took from testimony, and this 3:17 call was NEVER admitted as part of the other call logs exhibits I gathered from trial… I do agree that Nel must explain those first sounds the Stipp’s heard at about 3 am , which Ms. Van Merwe heard as well at about that time (although she did not hear the later shots? Her bedroom was on the other side of the thick walls of OP’s bathroom). However, .If you go by the defense version that Oscar shot those 4 shots at 3:00 am, it does not fit in with many other facts or statements made by OP. Roux was desperate to get Stipp’s to agree that there was a time delay after those first bangs and the female screams…but that was not to be. Dr. Stipp was solid on that that it did not take more than 1 or 2 seconds to get out of bed and go to his balcony window and heard the FEMALE screams intermingled with a male voice…Roux was pushing on this for a long time because according to OP, after he shot thru the door, he quietly backed out of the bathroom area out the passage to his bedroom when he realized it may be Reeva and went on his bed and felt curtain for her .OP did not start screaming seconds after the shots, in addition Stipp’s both saw the bathroom light was on, whereas OP’s version is it was not on. We also know that OP called Stander @3:19, so what was Oscar doing for 19 minutes after shooting thru that door?? according to his own version it only took him about 5 minutes from when he shot her to banging down the door…Finally, Oscar in his affadavit and testimony places his yelling help, help, help BEFORE banging down the door with the cricket bat. This proves by his own version that the second set of bangs heard by Stipp’s had to be the gunshots because they heard him yell for help AFTER those bangs and so did the N’s .As far as Oscar sounding like a female… Let us not forget that the Burgers/Johnson also heard Female and Male yelling and all 4 ear witnesses HEARD the distinct difference between the 2 voices they heard PRIOR to the gunshots that night.

    “You are confusing your theory with evidence. They heard a bang before 3:16. If the second bangs were at 3:15 or earlier then you are right, but if they were at 3:17 then you are wrong”
    >>> Yes I do say the gunshots (second set) were at about 3:14 so I am right?
    Thanks for debating the facts..I would like to hear Nel’s explanation of the discrepancies in his key witness’ evidence…Perhaps those first bangs heard had something to do with another mystery in this case, the damaged silver plate by the rim of tub or the bullet hole and damage found on the BEDROOM door??

  25. ptiteange
    June 26, 2014

    About the call logs not being admitted as evidence, I don’t know but if it were just untrue or a total guess then I’d be very surprised. Nel was very quick to jump on any inaccuracies by Roux, so I doubt it was wrong. I would hope that all phone records would be available to the court. I don’t think all the written evidence has been made public though.
    I agree about the evidence not fitting with the defence version either. However, I’m not sure that many cases have evidence that fits together like a complete jigsaw puzzle – witnesses do genuinely make mistakes.
    Re Mrs VdM: you can’t say Mr and Mrs VdM didn’t hear the 3:15 shots because they were at the back of the house unless you can explain what the noises they heard around 3 were (they couldn’t have been bat strikes by your argument) or why they were also heard by a security guard and the Stipps. Or you must argue Mrs VdM and her husband heard the second bangs but got the time a bit wrong. ie there were bangs at around 3 but the VdMs heard the second bangs but mistakenly said they were around 3. Coincidentally.
    The lights evidence does look bad. The defence will point out I expect that though they both claim to have seen lights on immediately after the first bangs, they saw different lights and in niether case did they see a combination of lights that were possible at this time which indicates that they saw the lights later. They heard 2 sets of bangs and many other things that night – might they have confused when they saw the lights?
    Also, why didn’t Mrs Stipp hear OP yelling before the shots? On the other hand, perhaps his voice rises with distress and he shouted in a higher pitch after the shooting because he was panicked. He did say that he shouted after shooting, incidentally.
    What indeed were Mr and Mrs Stipp doing for 15 or so minutes between the first and second bangs? Dr Stipp’s testimony doesn’t suggest a 15 minute gap really. But Mrs Stipp placed the gap at 15 minutes in her evidence. I think one can argue that running round stumps, panicking, screaming for help while racing back and forth between 2 rooms to check on the door, put on legs, kick the door then hit it with a bat might take quite some time.
    The ‘help’ evidence was addressed above. It depends whether you take the Stipps’ evidence or Burger/Johnson’s as correct. On the face of it, without further phone timing evidence, it is unclear who is more likely to be right though Burger/Johnson heard less so are less likely to have confused timings and the Stipps’ evidence apparently doesn’t accord with the phone records (perhaps).
    Well, the witnesses hear higher and lower sounds. A man would likely make both if he were crying in a high pitch but the higher pitch sounds might carry further and be more audible.

    Yes, I too am waiting to hear Nel’s statement. I suspect though that it will be basically that OP is not a credible witness and that his story is not reasonably possibly true. Whether he needs to convince the court of every other detail is not clear to me.

    On the other hand, I would hope the court would want to have a plausible version of events based on the prosecution version before convicting. Maybe that isn’t necessary though.

    • Rita Castel
      June 27, 2014

      This summation of Dr. Stipp’s evidence from websleuth.com, I just found which reiterates what i have said all along:

      Dr. Johan STIPP (DrS)

      – …
      – DrS went back into the bedroom and took his phone
      – DrS called Silverwoods security landline : it rang quite a few times but no answer (i.e. not logged in phone records or misdialed).
      – DrS called 10111 but that number must be out of order : heard a ‘funny’ dialing tone.
      – DrS called to 082911 but no one answered.
      – DrS heard another 3 loud bangs, one on top of each other in rapid succession.
      – DrS told AS to get away from the windows
      – DrS called Silverwoods security landline again at 3:15:51 (16 seconds)
      – DrS explained to the guard on duty what he heard and asked to dispatch someone
      – …

      The second set of bang occurred before 3:15:51… this time is taken from the telephone company server that services the Silverwoods Security landline.

      • ptiteange
        June 27, 2014

        I don’t think that repeating Dr Stipp’s evidence makes it more likely to be correct than it was the first time round. You have just quoted the parts of the evidence that support the prosecution case and missed out bits that don’t agree. There’s probably nothing to be gained by further discussion about the phone call data without further evidence. Hopefully the court has that and it will inform their decision.

  26. ptiteange
    June 26, 2014

    I don’t think that Nel can argue that the damage to the bedroom door the bath panels explains the first bangs. He has presented no evidence to that effect at all. In this case, what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander: he can’t ridicule the defence’s gun-bat sound test evidence and say it is unreliable and then introduce his own cause of the bangs without any evidence at all.
    He must surely either say that the first bangs are a mystery but that all the other evidence is enough to convict so he doesn’t need to explain them, or he must say they are bat strikes. The former may be possible but rather unsatisfactory I’d guess from the court’s perspective, especially as there is a good candidate for the ‘other’ bangs. I think Nel has to say that they were bat strikes at around 3. He then has to argue that OP was on his stumps then (lol) or that he was on his legs and then took his legs off for the shots (lol again) or knelt down. I don’t think the bat strikes on stumps is even possible and makes no sense at all and it’s silly to suggest he took off his legs to shoot, which leaves the last point. And a cold, calculating attack like that seems directly at odds with his subsequent distress, that during the trial and indeed his bad performance in the witness box. For that to be true, he’d have to have thought about the consequences of shooting including a loss of reputation and income and the strong likelihood of starring in a high profile murder trial, he’d have to be a great actor, very quick thinking, come up with a story that fit many of the obvious facts without any idea who had seen or heard what. He then had a year to plan a consistent story and get good at telling it and then – um, contradicted himself a lot and told a story that was unnecessarily implausible (doors slamming etc). Hm.

  27. Rita Castel
    June 27, 2014

    Please listen to day 5 part 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtMKQQ02s7U
    You will hear how Roux made a complete fool out of himself a few times. Later @ mark 14:25, he begins to discuss the phone calls made by Dr. Stipp and literally invents as to what the call was for when Stipp says, ‘i dont know , i need to see MY phone log records,Roux never lets him look at them like he did with BABA, because that call was NOT on the physical record! The phone logs were entered but NOT the one that Roux decided is the first call to security that there was no answer…Just think a bit , when u make a call to someone and no one answers does that call get recorded on your phone records provider document? NO! because there was no connection! the 3:15:51(16 sec) is the only one that Roux was able to give the exact hr/min/sec reading because that was the call Stipp got thru and spoke to security. Roux kept saying , oh we will argue get the record but he never did! the judge at one point did not allow him to continue his question regarding a statement of Stipps without the actual transcript in front of her and the witness! After arguing with the judge , he says” You are rightfully entitled to have that Ma Lady”, but never produces the exhibit as he said he would ….As you hear this clip towards the end, all of a sudden Oscar’s version again changes to include that he did scream after firing the shots! at that point , i was sure that he was tailoring his evidence to fit Stipp’s hearing screaming shortly after the first sounds.The 3:27:14 call where Roux was trying to say is when Stipp got thru to security was not so . It was when Stipp called Hospital emergency from OP’s house and then @3:28 had Stander call ER 911 as directed. As far as all the ear witnesses are concerned , the Stipp’s are the most credible. Anitta Stipp was NOT woken by the bangs, she was getting ready to get a drink as she heard those sounds and saw the lights on outside her balcony window from her bed.They both saw and heard the most one could that night and they followed every step of the events. The doctor knew exactly which house the sounds were coming from as he is the one who directed security where to go! he SAW the movement of Pistorius in that bathroom window where the lights were still on. There is NO doubt about the lights being on. Besides, on Oscar’s version , how was he able to aim all 4 shots towards the toilet bowl & magazine rack (following her screams and movements) in the pitch dark bathroom?? Yes, for about those 15 minutes, the Stipp’s were going from one balcony to another to hear where the screaming was coming from and as Anette said the screaming was for quite a while and at one point coming closer to her home as if the woman was downstairs in the street…Dr. Stipp went inside and attempted 3 times to call (that takes time) before he did get thru and speak to security..that sounds right to me.As far as Mvd, could it be that the first sounds were from the kitchen or bedroom area, where she could hear better from her bedroom location??I dont think Reeva was screaming the whole time from the confined toilet room … Many speculated that Oscar may have hit the cricket bat on the door or that silver plate to frighten her, but only banged the door down after the shooting.However, the bedroom door was also damaged as per exhibits shown..I agree that Oscar was genuinely overcome with sadness and regret when he realized what he did in a fit of a rage but he had to cover up what really happened that night (or self denial) or he would be put away for a long long time.
    Please comment on ur opinion after listening to the clip above…thanks.

  28. ptiteange
    June 27, 2014

    We will have to disagree about the phone evidence. I can’t see Roux making up something so specific particularly as it totally disagrees with the witness testimony and Nel doesn’t object. I do agree that the cross at that point doesn’t really make much sense.
    I don’t understand your point about the phone records. I haven’t looked at mine recently (paperless billing) but surely a phone company has no reason to include unanswered calls in their billing info because they are not charged for while they have every reason to provide a record of all calls made when asked by the police. It’s not the same thing. The 3:27 call was unanswered and appeared on the records according to Roux.
    I don’t see how your comments address mine. No one is suggesting the Stipps got the wrong house, nor that Mr Stipp didn’t see OP moving in the bathroom. The alleged mistake would be in the timing.
    How sure are you that OP aimed at screams or a magazine rack on his version? His shots were all around the door handle which is where you’d expect an intruder to be standing surely. On his version, he fired on hearing a wood moving noise that he thought was the door opening but which he subsequently assumed must have been the rack. On his version he heard no screams and mistook the wood noise for the door moving so I don’t see your point.
    I’m not suggesting there’s a problem with the length of time between 2 sets of shot sounds in the Stipps’ version but that you can’t just dismiss OP’s version on those grounds but then say that the Stipps’ activities clearly took 15 minutes.
    So Mrs VdM heard at 3ish something louder than the actual gunshots themselves? We know the Stipps heard 2 sets of similar shot sounds so the first sounds if from the front or side must have been louder than the real shots at the back. Bat strikes are much quieter than gunshots so that would also apply to the bat hitting other things like the bedroom door I guess. And then you can’t explain why the Stipps didn’t hear the real bat strikes on the toilet door as a third set of bangs.
    Banging the door down after a 3:15 shooting – well, see the point above.
    I still don’t see the fit of rage argument. Can you give a plausible scenario in which he didn’t have his legs on during the shooting if they argued in the kitchen between 2 and 3?

    • juror13
      June 27, 2014

      I am of the belief that Mrs VDM heard only the 2nd bangs. She says “about” 3am. Not exactly 3am. What’s important is what she describes heading after. Silence. And a short while later she hears commotion and loud crying that was identified by her husband as Oscar. And after that, cars and ambulance. If you are not stuck on her time as an absolute, the content of what she heard absolutely matches up with what others heard/saw after the gunshots which were the last bangs.

      • Rita Castel
        June 27, 2014

        Juror 13, Yes it surely does. How about the patrol guard who heard ‘rifle shots’ at around 3 ish??? was that the gunshot sounds that occurred a bit later too? When convicting someone of premed murder there can be no ” IF”S” or ‘maybe” ….it has to be proved beyond a reasonable doubt. Has Nel accomplished that as far as premed Murder, regardless of who he thought he was shooting at?

      • juror13
        June 27, 2014

        For the guard, I really need to re-listen to Baba’s testimony. It’s been a while. When I re-listened to Mrs VDM a few weeks ago, it was clear as day to me that she heard the shots, not the first bangs that the Stipps heard. I am pretty convinced that nobody else heard the first bangs, although like I said, I want to re-listen to Baba to confirm first.

        As for the charges – they are not trying to convict him on “premeditated” murder, the charge is just “murder”. But there are different levels of it which will affect sentencing.

        Has Nel proven that murder was committed? I say yes! From Oscar’s own mouth, he deliberately & intentionally armed himself with a loaded gun, removed the holster & safety, moved toward the perceived danger, had his finger on the trigger, the gun was pointed in the direction of the door, he shot 4 times.

        The ballistics information shows that those bullets were not randomly shot off by a wild shooter who couldn’t see or contemplate what he was doing. There is also proof via Reeva’s injuries, position of the rack and blood spatter that there was a pause between shots. Time to scream and time for him to not shoot 3 more times!

        Did he intentionally kill a person behind that door? Yes! You cannot logically or legally see it any other way – unless he is found mentally insane/not culpable for his actions.

        I don’t give a rat’s ass if he was scared or not… By law, he intentionally killed a person.

        Did he intend to shoot Reeva? Just depends if you believe HIS story which is not substantiated by the physical evidence in his home/bedroom/bathroom nor the ear witness evidence. I agree with Nel, based on the above, that his story is not reasonably, possibly true.

        He can no longer use his putative self defense because he won’t claim responsibility for being of conscious mind when he pulled the trigger. He now MUST stick with accident, which is ludicrous. Nothing about the event speaks “accident”.

        If his mental evaluation comes back that he’s insane to the extent that he didn’t know what he was doing, well then we can’t dispute that.

        If it comes back with GAD, but that he was able to act accordingly that night, then if I were the Judge, I’d disregard the GAD. His grossly negligent actions go so far above and beyond what is reasonable for somebody with anxiety. I know some will disagree with me, but based on the evidence presented, the GAD thing is a load of bullshit. The fact that his FIRST meeting with the Dr was on May 2, 2014, tells you everything you need to know.

      • juror13
        June 28, 2014

        Going back to my comments on Baba/the guards, here is what I have:

        At about 2:55am the guards arrived back at the gate after their routine patrol. At shortly past 3:00am, the guard who was on bike/buggy duty came to the gate to report that they heard rifle shots. After a few moments Baba also received a phone call from Dr. Stipp and another neighbor. They reported hearing gunshots from their neighbor’s house. Since Baba didn’t know which neighbor’s house the noise was coming from, he called the guard who was driving the security vehicle and asked him to drive around and check it out. He also ordered the guard on the bike/buggy duty to take him over to Dr. Stipp’s house to investigate.

        To me, now knowing all of the ear witness testimony, it makes sense that the guards did not hear the shots exactly at 3am. It was “shortly” after 3am and the phone calls from Stipp and Mike came in moments after – we know those calls were in the 3:15-3:16 range. So the guards heard the same gunshots that everybody else heard at some time around the 3:15-ish timeframe.

        It’s also important to point out that Baba clearly states that Oscar’s house lights were on. Remember, he got there at the same time as the Standers. Carice was tripping all over herself trying to claim that only the kitchen light was on/it was somewhat dark/she couldn’t totally remember the conditions of the light, etc. She was very non-committal about the light. But for Baba (who never stepped foot in the house) to clearly see (from outside) Oscar carrying Reeva all the way down the stairs… there obviously were more lights on than just the kitchen light. Johan Stander’s account of seeing Reeva’s injuries from the doorway also substantiates that point.

      • Rita Castel
        June 29, 2014

        Just one nitty correction: the gunshots occurred @ about 3:13ish..
        Dr. Stipp got thru at 3:15:51, the second bangs had already occured BEFORE that call was even dialed. It seems to me from both sidesthat the cricket bat was at Oscar’s accessiblity when he bashed down the door after the shots,and he was still on his stumps as Vermeulen stated. His version of going back and forth from the bathroom to the bedroom (3x) does not fit the timeline with Roux’s or Nel;’s 3:17 time of shots or hitting the door…

      • juror13
        June 29, 2014

        I agree that the cricket bat was very close by and used instantaneously. The story about running around on his stumps in the dark is ridiculous.

        Shots at 3:13-3:15 timeframe, yep could be. It’s so hard to nail it down to the exact minute as we have to rely on what the witnesses consider to be “moments” and “shortly”. It’s a bit subjective. If the security phone logs are indeed exact, the shots were before 3:15:51.

    • Rita Castel
      June 27, 2014

      I cannot argue with one who has the evidence wrong…sorry…i tried. If you refuse to HEAR the evidence I posted , this discussion is useless and over. sorry…

  29. ptiteange
    June 27, 2014

    That’s the only explanation that works for the prosecution imo. Her evidence could also add weight to the defence if it turns out that Mrs VdM and her husband heard the first bangs at around 3 because they heard crying a little after (he heard OP and she heard a woman). Mrs VdM said her husband called security so that might pin down the time of the bangs they heard. The court will have that evidence I assume but we don’t so we are guessing.

  30. ptiteange
    June 27, 2014

    On the 3 am ‘shots’, the security guard heard them too and he was not as far as I know straight outside OP’s house which may also suggest that those bangs were pretty loud. So there were very loud bangs at just after 3 according to at least 3 witnesses but Mrs VdM’s just-after-3am bangs must be the second bangs to fit in with a prosecution scenario. It seems more likely in the absence of other evidence that they were the first bangs (though see my comment above).
    The only evidence you present that Mr and Mrs VdM heard later shots is that they shortly after heard OP crying. This evidence therefore fits both scenarios (OP: shots (heard by VdMs), crying mistaken for screams, bat; Prosecution: bangs, RS screaming, shots (heard by VdMs), OP crying).
    Incidentally, Mrs VdM heard 4 shots in quick succession. This agrees with OP’s version, and is at odds with the witnesses to the second bangs.

  31. Rita Castel
    June 29, 2014

    Juror13 .your summation is correct. I don’t know what importance it is that BABA or Standers saw the lights on or not upon arrival to OP. By that time, OP agrees that he had put the lights on (though he does not recall) to get Reeva out of toilet and carry her down the stairs. The Stipp’s who both saw the BATHROOM lights ON second(s) after the first set of bangs and during the female screams is what contradicts OP’s version. NEL has established ‘murder’ but still needs to tie that loose notion that the first set of bangs were NOT the gunshots that killed Reeva; otherwise the doubt remains that the screams heard after that could not have been Reeva’s and that the second set of bangs was the cricket bat bashing the door…This would give credence to OP’s story somewhat although still guilty of murder…

    • juror13
      June 29, 2014

      It’s not quite as important as the bathroom lights being on immediately after the gunshots but it’s still important in the grand scheme of things. Oscar was painfully careful to talk about how he moved around the house in the dark after the shots because he was so terrified, even while he was supposedly thinking it may have been Reeva in the locked toilet. Yes he says he thinks he must have turned the bathroom light on at some point but…

      The physical evidence was that Baba and the Standers who arrived first saw lights on, Van Rensburg testified that both the porch light and the bedroom light were on when he arrived, the Stipps saw the bathroom light on throughout the entire thing… To me, when considering the totality of everything, I think there were several lights on that entire night during the incident and Oscar’s claims about being in pitch darkness is total rubbish.

      It’s ONLY Oscar’s story that it was pitch black that night. Evidence proves otherwise.

    • juror13
      June 29, 2014

      I don’t think it’s necessary for Nel to definitely explain the first set of noises.

      Oscar’s own version doesn’t match what happened immediately after the first bangs. He says the light was off, he yelled to Reeva to call police (did not scream repeatedly in a terrorized high pitch tone), he carefully backed out of the bathroom and went to the bed, checked around, blah blah blah. It doesn’t match the account.

      The ONLY logical conclusion is that the 2nd set of bangs were gunshots, considering their dramatically higher decibel level and matching up what everyone heard before and after. The stories are not all exact but the elements of what they heard and when do match. The female screams were before the shots, silence after the shots, loud crying shortly after, then cars. All the witnesses’ evidence can be matched accordingly to these 4 portions of the timeline.

      Hence, the first bangs heard by Stipps are clearly NOT the fatal shots and therefore, actually not hugely important to identify, although Roux wants you to think otherwise.

  32. Rita Castel
    June 29, 2014

    Juror13, I respectfully disagree, It is necessary, because the burden of proof is on the prosecution. If Nel wants a ‘guilty’ that OP “knew” it was Reeva, he cannot afford to leave any reasonable “doubt”. Roux has created some doubt of that by the glaring discrepencies between the 2 couple’s ear witnesses, and Mvd’s statement that she thought it was a woman ‘crying’ when in fact it was Oscar. As Roux put it ‘how easy it is to make a mistake’. I dont want to go thru it again, but Burger/Johnson’s is not consistent with all the elements of the Stipp’s. They place the yells for help BEFORE the Bangs (as per OP version , he yelled for help BEFORE hitting the door with the cricket bat ) and they heard 2 sets of Help (1 following the other). They also place these ‘shots’ about 4 minutes later than the Stipp’s heard them as per phone log evidence. Nel did tell the judge during a 15 minute objection that he would ‘deal’ with his witnesses discrepencies, but as of yet has not…so he may do so during closing arguments.

    • juror13
      June 29, 2014

      I understand where you are coming from, and I do believe that Nel will go in to detail about what the differences mean. I just see it a little differently than you in that I personally believe the difference in what people heard is based on at what point they woke up – the screams vs. the cries. The screams were before the shots – the cries were after the shots.

      Is it enormously important to the story that the Burger/Johnson team heard “help” before the shots? I personally don’t think so. I think it’s abundantly clear that they would not be hearing wood on wood (the bat on the door) from 4-5 houses over. Every other part of their story matches with the others – the screams that turned in to more urgent screams, the gunshots, then silence… then some time after, they heard the vehicles. That largely matches the other accounts. The only difference is “help”, and there’s a very real possibility that “help” was yelled both before and after the shots. Multiple ear witnesses will never be 100% spot on to everybody else. But in this instance, they are pretty darn close.

      • Rita Castel
        June 30, 2014

        Yes, it is important as Nel used that male yells for ‘help’ mark to solidify when Ms. N heard that ‘last’ shot that the Stipp’s heard by the yells from the male Helps! You are right that multiple witnesses will never be 100% on the timeline, but in this particular case , the sequence of what occurred first and last is the crux of proving whether or not he knew it was Reeva. Nel did not say this yet, but the way I figured that the 2nd set of bangs were the actual gunshots is by Oscar’s version that he yelled for help BEFORE banging with the cricket bat and Stipp’s heard those bangs BEFORE his yells for help, so it could not be the cricket bat! However with the Burger’s version, it fits with oscar’s version with his calling for help and then the bangs of the cricket bat…In addtion, it really does not make any sense that Oscar would yell for help before shooting thru the door and right after she called for help, unless he was trying to camouflage her screams …

  33. ptiteange
    June 29, 2014

    Your comment above about when the guards heard the bangs defies all logic to me. Baba said the guards got back at 2:55 (early I know) then came to say that they had heard rifle shots. He then shortly after got the neighbours’ phonecalls. Is it likely he got the time so very wrong? We would need to know where the patrol guards were when they heard the shots, but it’s unlikely they would have been able to get back to the gate and make their report in a matter of, what, 2 minutes? They didn’t phone in, they physically went.
    The guards’ statements and where they were at the time are I’m sure pieces of information the court will have that gives them an advantage over us.

    Perhaps Nel doesn’t have to explain the first bangs. I don’t know. I’d be suspicious if he couldn’t come up with a reasonable story for them though. It would suggest that he hasn’t got one.

    • juror13
      June 29, 2014

      With all due respect, it does not defy logic. You are misunderstanding the evidence. Here is the link for that day – start at 19:00.

      Baba went out in the buggy with another guard to do patrol duty of the neighborhood. They were back to the main gate by 2:55am. The other guard on bike duty came back to the gate to report rifle shots – “around past 3am”. “After a few moments, I received telephone calls from Dr. Stipp and Mr. Nhlengethwa.” They reported that they heard gun shots from their neighbors. He NEVER said that the guy on bike reported the shots at 3am. He said “around past 3am” and then he said “moments later” he got the calls from Stipp and Nhlengethwa. We know those calls were at 3:15:51 and 3:16+. We KNOW that when they made those calls they had just heard the gunshots prior to their calls.

      The neighborhood is not big at all. It would take about 30 seconds in a car or bike to get from the main gate to Oscar’s house. Check out the map (it’s the 4th picture down on the site). The guard could have very easily heard the shots and been back to the gate immediately.

      http://www.businessinsider.com/photos-here-is-the-gated-community-where-oscar-pistorius-allegedly-killed-his-girlfriend-2013-2

  34. Rita Castel
    June 30, 2014

    Yes, this confirms that the patrol guards also heard those gunshots at about the same time as Stipp and Nhlengthwa around 3:13 ish But at the beginning of his evidence, Baba states that before closing all the gates they do a routine check of windows, doors left opened. They did see Stipp’s balcony doors opened and phoned them to alert them. However they did not SEE that Oscar’s were also opened at that time??

    • juror13
      June 30, 2014

      Yea, that is something to consider. I’m looking at an aerial photo of his house right now and his bedroom balcony is set far back on the right side of the house. Maybe it’s difficult to see from the front street level and they didn’t notice it?

      • Rita Castel
        June 30, 2014

        Well, Roux never bought that up…so i dont think it will be noticed.

  35. lauramills95
    July 6, 2014

    First of all thank you for doing such a fantastic job with this blog.
    So many things are out of sorts, I agree with other posters op in his version didn’t scream like he never screamed before straight after the first bangs, he shouted reeva and apparently went searching for her not screaming till he got back to the bathroom So how could bangs then screams of a woman be heard?

    The phone calls that got through stipp at 3.15 etc is more probable the time of fatal shots leading to screams fading and op then crying realising how serious the situation is,
    I also find the removal of Reevas handbag strange did they manage to put something in the bag that could of shown reason to why it all happened, also extremely strange Oscars phone going (probably with the bag) why were they so concerned to tamper with evidence if op is innocent?
    Also how I feel about frank hearing nothing? Was op calling for frank to help him? Was frank trying to break bedroom door down?
    I think it was also mentioned that clarice also went into the spare room looking for a bag? Why? Whose? Was frank staying in this room… Or someone else?
    My thoughts on Reevas jeans inside out as others have said she had done washing so possibly washes them inside out, after packing her bag to leave she went to get dressed but argument escalated her fleeing to bathroom,
    I think the damage to bedroom door is something to do with the incident her locking it him breaking it down (photos of the scene show only one door open why would someone shut it op couldn’t if his whole reason was for enough space to carry reeva through it)
    Ppl questioning how someone living 177m away could hear anything yet clarice heard a man shouting help and they lived 212m (maybe a slight difference sorry)
    Also because stipp told stander what he heard beforehand gave op a chance to explain things in his bail affidavit as stander would of told his daughter who had plenty of time alone with op before police arrested him,
    Why was stander not calling the ambulance/police whilst outside from getting to the house and stipp then going in and back out he still hadn’t rang them so who was he ringing what was he doing all that time?
    All these ppl not reacting in a normal manner if they thought op was innocent wasting/buying time
    So much I doubt about it all and am interested in closing statements now,

  36. Rita Castel
    July 6, 2014

    I agree that the Stander’s behavior was quite odd. Surprised Nel did not question either one of them about the fact that Stander told Baba to call police and paramedics (blocking his entrance to the house as they got there) yet responded to Dr. Stipp that the ambulance had not been contacted yet. I also found it very suspicious why Stander would ask Dr. Stipp exactly what he heard or saw before the cops got there in the midst of a woman bleeding to death. This indicates, he was already gathering information to give over to or protect the accused. This is confirmed when he got Dr. Stipp’s number to give to Oscar’s lawyer….

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This entry was posted on May 9, 2014 by in Oscar Pistorius Trial and tagged , , .
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